1/2 LOCAL BM

Sitting with 130, after just losing a pot shortly. Loose, weird table. Couple tighties, but mostly loose passive players.

5-6 limps to BTN, who makes it 10, hero in SB calls with QJos, ends up being an 8 way pot.

flop J109, 2 diamonds, I hold the Qd

Hero bets 2 blind before flop, called by 2 players, MP1 raises to 15, BTN shoves for 40 total, HERO re shoves.......

Is calling with QJos for a raise in the SB a leak?

Thoughts on my shove-I think I have BTN beat, and the reason why I shoved. Wanted to isolate, and maybe getting MP1 to fold soemthing like AJ, or call with something like J8. Too much gamble here?

For starters, "Hero bets 2 blind before the flop?!?" Gonna have to explain that one to me, buddy. You have bad position and are making a blind bet that offers all other players 40-to-1, yielding no information if they call and almost no information if they raise. Why?

I'm fine with the check-raise shove here, but what you're mainly doing with it is trying to force out anyone else with a Q who would chop with you if the str8 hits. I'd rather have a few fewer chips here to make this play - I think most of the time when we get action, we're trailing, and sometimes in a bad way. Still, you're risking 120 to win 115. Unless someone holds KQ or Q8, we're drawing very live and there's a chance of folding out an overpair or AJ here.

Why do you think you have the button beat?

So, let me get this straight. You're in the SB and the button makes it 10 after 5-6 limpers, so you have the same people to act behind you if you decide to call. You're first to act after the flop (way OOP, relative and absolute), and you're facing someone who raised knowing that there were 5-6 limpers. How often is QJ going to be good PF and post-flop here?

Dump it PF.

Now you have a tough spot after the flop. A combined range of 8 hands after the flop (even though you have an OESD and top pair) is likely to either

A: Have you beat
B: Drawing better than you

after the flop. And what's with the two blind before the flop? That's like donating 2 bucks to the pot.
I'm sorry, but I don't like anthing about this hand.

the 2bucks is a check raise tool I use everynow and then.

An easier check-raise tool is checking, and then raising. $2 will induce a bet into a $~80 pot as much as $0 will if the bettor is planning on betting. It's not like you're adding anything significant to the pot to make someone think "damn, I was going to fold but now I'm getting better odds to make the call."

From the beginning.

1. Calling $10 of a $130 stack preflop & OOP with QJo is a losing play by itself. If you add in the fact that it's likely to be a busy multiway pot where you'll probably need at least 2 pair to win it, and you have yourself a losing proposition.

2. So, 8 people to the flop, $80 in the pot and you bet $2 blind? Why? It doesn't change anything. It's not like you're trying to get someone to raise so you can reraise and get more money in the pot. It's just throwing away $2 plain and simple. Also, why on earth would you ever bet blind, for any amount, when you're first to act in raised pot where there are 8 people in it? This just makes no sense. Also, it gives you NO chance to protect what might be the best hand anyway since you can't make a real bet on the flop. Not only do you likely throw away $2, but you also lose any information that you would've gained from players reactions to your bet if you chose to lead out.

3. Stacks of the other players would help. Considering that the pot is $80 and there is a bet of $15 and a push for $40, you probably should just stick your chips in since you've already put yourself in a terrible position. As long as nobody has KQ, you're actually ok right now. The button easily has AQ or a similar hand.

I dunno. The whole thing seemed pretty well f-ed up as it is. I'm just gonna stick my money in there and hope for the best.

This is a specific hand, Acid. OP did not ask for your general pre/postflop strategy.

fold pf

the blind bet is pretty pointless

as played, the shove is fine if you feel like you have the button beat

u guys are reading too much into the 2$blind. Its something, in a live game, that can help you later on and create an image for you. While alot of the 1/2 players don't notice alot, they will notice a kid betting blind. Besides, I had 2 one dollar chips and the rest were 5s, so I put it in blind. Loosen up and have a little fun. I only get 30 hands an hr. neways.


Back to the hand. I thought my preflop play was questionable, but wasn't horrible. I've been having trouble out of the blinds, online and live, on what range I should be profitably playing. I feel sometimes, that I'm either giving too much credit to raisers, or calling too liberally with s/c and trap hands.

I'm fairly sure, on the flop, my chips are going in one way or another.

the problem with the blind bet here is this: what if everyone just calls, and you happen to have flopped the best hand here(possible)...now you've let like 7 other players draw at you for virtually nothing, when you could have made a normal bet on the flop and pushed them out

and while it does create a good image for you, i just think image isn't really worth possibly costing you a lot of money

its like checking blind. if that happens then it happens. Thats the risk of the action. Its not like I have AA here.

Like I said, it was something fun to do, with 2 loose dollar chips. Keeps the players talking and some of them might even enjoy themselves more so because of the weird play. Betting min blind is for fun sakes.

God, this hand is a trainwreck.

But ISANL, so I won't give my suggestions.

What are you talking about?

I'm pretty sure he was making a joke. I definitely laughed...

I also laughed... BAHAHAHHAHAAHA ACID KNIGHT IS A DONKEY!

I wouldn't want to check blind with a hand like QJ or in a multiway pot here. I don't really think you gain anything from that, or from the $2 bet.

That being said, as long as you know that it's a waste of money and can screw up the hand for you by making that $2 bet, then that's fine if you think you can make it up with other image considerations that come from it. I don't mind it I guess, but in this situation, with 7 opponents, I think it was probably a poor choice.

Sigh. The guy with 19 posts (no offense sir ) got it and I miss it.

I should go take a nap.

I so badly want to make my comeback by pointing out how badly you're running at poker, but I'll restrain myself...

Okay you say your at a table with loose passive players and a couple tighties. I take it the button is a tightie because the others wouldnt raise preflop. You mostly have to give credit to the raiser if this is the case, also what hands could the loose passives have. I think your call preflop was a mistake oop a raise would have been better if your going to play the hand. If you get calls from the loose passive players then you know your in trouble and if the tight player repops you you loose less than just calling the pf raise. Now you have no clue where you are at by just calling. My guess you lost the hand.

We're not "reading too much into it", you posted this hand for critique and we're giving it. It may seem like a small aspect of the hand, but it's not. By doing this "$2 blind bet", you are unable to protect a hand should you flop one (and you did). Anyone that has a hand with a Q in it is drawing cheaply, so is a flush draw and any better hands are coming over the top. QQ is definitely in the range of 7 opponents having called a PF raise here, so is 99-JJ, AQ, AK, AA, and tons of other hands that have a good chance to draw out on you or already have you beat. This is why you shouldve folded preflop.

I would hope that your reason for not folding PF was that you wanted to see if you could catch a good hand and take a big pot. Well, if my reasoning is correct, you did just that; but instead of taking control and defining your hand, you bet blindly $2, which is essentially checking and ripping up two dollars. You have to lead this flop. By doing this $2bet you let someone else take control of the hand, and you don't know what they have. By betting anywhere between 2/3-3/4 of the pot, you get a lot of hands to fold that would call $2 with a weak hand that could outdraw you, and you isolate opponents that have a hand like QQ-AA, two pair, set, etc, and now you are facing a much less wide range, and you can decide what to do if you get raised or flat called on the next street. Do you see any of my points?

And yes, i was joking

OK frankly, it doesnt matter if i bet 1 big blind...BLIND. When you get barely any hands per hr, you have to keep yourself alive at the table.

Jeez you guys are a bunch of nits. Got your panties in a bunch over a 1 bb bet. The move itself is so stupid, its funny.


To the range of original raiser...saw him raise A8, and KK, so its kinda wide. Maybe after boating up in a 800 pot earlier against my nut flush had something to do with my call.....maybe. I really hate these spots, because like any player, I would love to see a flop with two connecting broadway cards.

I think you're missing the points. We're not saying that it's plainly a waste of money (but it is), we're saying that the strategic explanation behind it is weak and confusing. There's a time to bet blind, and there's an amount to bet when you do. This is neither nor.

Let's just say, if I was writing a strategy book, this move wouldn't be included. So I can agree, that stragetically, this isn't an optimal move, nor,I assume, is checking blind.

Yes, it does. Money isn't the only consideration here ($2, I know). It's the fact that you now face the repercussions and tough decisions of doing so.

Checking blind can be a good move, but it shouldn't (like this play) be a part of your common arsenal. And just so you know, I'm not trying to be an ***. I just think that this play is very inappropraite given the PF action, and I'm facing some resistance, and am just trying to make sure you understand what I'm saying.

I hardly see a tough decision here due to my blind bet.

I don't think that people should ever get upset at how someone interprets their play in a hand. If you post and aren't willing to take some criticism, then don't post.

I think everyone is commenting on the $2 bet becuase it is so weird and seemingly pointless. Checking blind has its place in poker and this wouldn't be one of the spots that I would've chosen to check blind. And anyway, when is the last time someone charged you 1 big bet to check? It's not nittyness that causes people to criticize the bet, it's what Ted said above about the strategic considerations of it.

In this hand it doesn't seem to have adversely affected anything, but in many hands, it just might.

No ones upset. Well at least I'm not. I appreciate the discussion and critique.

I bolded that part because that's what it is. So to have 9 posts talking about something pointless...is pointless. If you want, assume I checked.

My real concerns are simply preflop, as I think postflop, the way it plays out, I simply have to stick in there with my hand. And the overall consensus is fold to the raise.


Anyways results

The guy who bet 15 instantly called and had the nuts. I improved...to the dummy end.

I don't think the discussion is entirely pointless. My main concern is that you lose a lot of information by not leading this pot.

1. Seemingly pointless = not totally pointless. If you're gonna check dark, check dark. Don't donate $2 to the pot and check, that's all I'm saying.
2. Yeah, you should be folding this preflop almost all of the time.
3. Yeah, once you see that flop, your chips need to go in.

I've seen a micro dark bet work.

Buck was drawing to a flush out of position. He called a pot-sized bet on the turn and then min-bet the turn in the dark. The guy with the made hand looked all quizzical and then just called. He stopped thinking about how the hand should be played and started trying to figure out what the hell that bet meant.

I can't imagine this working against good players, but the force has a strong influence on the weak-minded.

Oh, and fold preflop. AINEC.