- Alright i'm not good with the internet poker short hand lingo so please mind my noobness. -




Ok home cash game, blinds is 10c/20c (yeah we high rollers son)

I have J9 sitting next to UTG........
CUTOFF raises 40c........
everybody folds but me.
I call ............

($1.50 in the pot)

Flop is J 10 6 (rainbow)
I check........
CUTOFF bets 40c........
I call and raise 80c on top.....
CUTOFF Calls.

($3.90 in the pot)

Turn is 3.
I check...........
CUTOFF bets $2.........
I hesitate for abit then call.

($7.90 in the pot)

River is a 9.......
I check (in hope he pushes against my 2 pair)
He checks.

He reveals AA lol


If he Re-Raised me $3+ on the flop i probably would have thought about laying down top pair. But at that point he only raised an extra 40c pre flop and he only bet 40c into a $1.50 pot and just calls my 80c raise (a raise made 80% for information) so i put him on nothing spite of his tight image.

When the 3 came on the turn and he bet out $2 i thought either he just decided to now protect his hand or trying to scare me away from the pot.

When he checked on the river i knew this pot was mine. Then he turns the bullets over lol.


He claims if he did re-raise me on the flop i would have called because he put me on two pair. but then why would you bet out $2 on the turn it would have been better if he re-raised me post flop to see wether i did have two pair like he thought. I think it's not that i outplayed him but he let down his hand by poor betting post-flop.

Do you think i played this ok? Do you think person playing AA played his hand ok?

I think I'd bet the aces again on the river, although a check is fine too.
As for the J9, I hate the min-raise on the flop there. Either raise it up to an amount where you get some info, or call and find a new line on the turn. The way it was played though, I think we really have to hesitate on the turn. It was a good bet by him, but we really have to start finding a range of hands to put the Villain on.

i think you bet the turn after raising the flop

c/c on the turn is probably bad, if you raised for info on the flop and got called and decided to check the turn, there's no reason to then call

bet the river

as for his hand, the flop bet is too small obv, but otherwise he played it good

Don't string raise on the flop (you can't call and raise simultaneously), I think "sitting next to UTG" is a funny way to say you are in the big blind too, which is what I think you are saying based on the action.

As far as the way AA played the hand: flop bet is definitely on the small side, but it's not terrible (though normally 40-70% of the pot is probably better range). After he gets check-raised, the call is fine for pot control, there's no reason for him to go berserk here and 3 bet when he's in position. His hand remains somewhat disguised this way, he could have AK or AQ still among other hands. When he's checked to on the turn he definitely has to bet to protect his hand. The river is a bad card for him if you have KQ, otherwise it's pretty unlikely that he is beat, so I think he should definitely be value betting here and folding to a raise.

The way you played the hand depends on some of the information you didn't give. Generally speaking, J9o out of position against a tight player heads up is not a great idea. A tight player raising probably means 99+, AT+, KJ+, QJ+ (though from the CO his range should certainly be a bit wider). That said, there are only a few hands that you are ahead of on the flop, and you will be out of position for the whole hand. I think check-calling is alright given the bet size to see what he does on the turn, but check-folding is probably best (bet/folding is also fine), and worst I think is check-raising (unless you are really trying to move him off a better hand later). Since I think the main reason you should be c/ring this flop would be to move the guy off the hand, you have to follow through with a big bet on the turn, check-calling is certainly the worst option here IMO. I'd favor another check-raise over this by far. You finally make your hand on the river, so now you're beating KJ, QJ, AJ, QQ, KK, AA which definitely seem part of his range and you decide to check, but since this player is a tight one, leading out is far more effective at getting value. Check-raising is terrible since you will oftentimes get him to fold out worse hands and get called or raised by better hands and as you saw, he is going to check behind with a lot of his one pair hands here. By leading out, you will get calls a lot more frequently and you get to control the bet size.

Overall, I think you butchered the hand personally, while the guy with AA played it alright, but it's all part of learning, good luck!

You need to bet the river. The 9 is a fairly scare card, since it completes a straight draw (and makes two pair for a lot of plausible starting hands). The villain is probably right to check behind on this card and you should expect that.

+1.

Besides betting a little bigger on the flop, I think I'd play AA exactly the way your opponent did. Control the pot on the flop with position. Don't give a free card on the turn when you're very likely still ahead. Check the relatively bad river card. When you think about it, all of the money went in when he was the favorite. He didn't pay a cent when he was beat. Not a bad way to live.

Much appreciated with the replies gentlemen!!

but i think i need to explain a few things........

First of all, and most important of all is that by the book play wasn't my intention.

It was only $5 buy-in cash game.

I have already trippled up at this stage (and $100 up from a tourny), the pot was already $7.90 by the turn wich quadripples my money already giving me big stack on the table. So my aim was to get abit creative reason why i played a hand like J9 out of position and checked the river. By checking the river may lead him to believe i may be scared of a straight, so had he bet and i raise he most probably would have layed down his hand regardless if i hit two pair or not. Either way i knew i'd win this hand and content with the amount in that pot.

I have a tight image on the table also, maybe not as tight as villian in the hand but tight enough for him to put me on two pair on the flop (they know i don't push with nothing especialy with just a pair).....................my question is why, if he thought i had 2 pair, would you bet out $2 on the turn, almost half the pot?? So he can't have put me on a hand like QK for the straight on the river with the 9 that's why i checked coz i felt he was going to bet the river. Had i gone ontop of his $2 i felt he would have called, i don't think i needed to put any more money in plus then when he bet out the 2 bucks i knew he was holding pockets QQ or KK. Calling it, wasn't only because i now feared his hand but can also lead him to beleive i'm slow playing my two pair wich is what he put me on. And if i didn't hit the 9 on the river pushing big would most probably got him to fold.

I think he could have easily gotten me away from this pot. There was already $3.10 on the flop before he was to call my 80c raise he could have taken it right there instead he lost an extra uneccesary $2 to a suckout. I think this was an instance when you slow play too much, then when you decide to put into high gear the suck out occurs. He lost about $3.80 wich is over half the buy in but he could have lost more so i see how you guys think he played well. He disguised his hand very well though. Had i raised on the turn and that 9 never came out i probably would have lost more than i had to.



Again my aim wasn't to play this hand by the book, i was trying to get a little creative simply because i'm up for the day. I think i played that hand fine, not as bad as most said i did.

lol no i wasn't BB, was i meant to say UTG+1 or something. Again my poker internet lingo is poor but don't pertain that to me as a player.



Yup like i said if i raised on the river i felt i probably could have taken this down regardless of my two pair. Either way, again i was content with that pot amount so taking it right there was cool for me BUT like you said i thought he would have value bet reason why i checked it.



Not a good idea by any means. As i explained i was gambling coz i was up and felt i could afford to get creative. Villian is a good player and when he raises i put him only on premiums. I've only been playing for 9 months but i'm not that bad of a player to play a poor hand like J9o OOP.


i actualy wanted him to call, check/raising was for information as i know an extra 80c is alot for him (i know this player well). LIke i said raising on the turn could have meant unecceasry money for me to lose had i lost the pot. You could easily have said he should have re-raised on the flop and because he didn't it was a poor move but everybody saying i played badly?. Wasn't it already a terrible play putting in over half the pot on the turn any way considering he already put me on 2 pair? so why is just smooth calling the $2, with what he thinks is the better hand, bad play for me? considering i could have lost more if i did lose the pot had i re-raised. I said i wanted to change plays abit and not play this hand by the book, and by the turn there's no way i would play my hand OOP back to conventional methods.




i assume you guys think villian played the hand well becasue he came out not losing too much considering alot of people play AA to the end and push big, but if i lost i wouldn't have lost too much money either, i put in the same amount as he did, he was favourite to win yet i made bad plays? Had that 9 not have come out, he put me on two pair on the flop if i had bet $5 bucks on the river you think i still would have not won that pot? c'mon now. I think i played my hand fine. Like Negreanu says you don't need to bet alot to get the information you need.

Yeah, but a min-raise sure as hell isn't going to give you anything

it was enough for me, plus it had him putting me on two pair wich indicates the sort of the respect this player gives me (who is prob the best on the table). I smelt fear more than disguising his hand & i was correct.


The play was not conventional by any means, i flipped my style up for this hand and it worked in many levels in my personal opinion. Risky yes, but it was the intention from the get go.

looking forward to more replies gents. I'm learning alot just by reading peoples posts in this forum,

You'll also learn to develop a need for sarcasm...

I used to be a very nice person until I came onto this forum.. Now I'm just filled with animosity, I blame Zach for all of it, reading his posts just make me want to be a smart ***..

just as long as i don't come out psuedo-sarcastic.................animosity is good, it will keep my violent drinking habit company.

As soon as I read the bolded part, I knew I was gonna get blamed.

I think the main reason I hate this flop raise is because the range the villain has is very far ahead of you and he's almost always going to have a hand to at least call with. When he just calls you remain out of position, with a bigger pot, and you still really have no clue where he's at, other than he can probably beat J9, but maybe if we're lucky that he has AK/AQ/KQ. As far as getting villain to put you on a two pair hand, if he's thinking logically, you can really only have one two-pair hand here, JT. So if your range is probably something like JT, QJ, KJ, AJ, KQ, 66 (maybe 98s) or weirdly played TT+. Out of all these hands he's only behind two (I'm not counting JJ) and he has you drawing thin, so he's going to either save himself from losing a big pot against JT, and won't blow you off a one pair that you can have since he likely has you drawing so thin. The reason most people disagree with the way you played the hand is because the play was more bad than creative. I could call it creative to shove against a raise and reraise with T3o, but it's likely not a good idea. Even creative plays should have a reason -- it looked like you started a possibly creative play with the flop raise, but then you just gave up on the turn. The reason people don't mind the way AA played the pot is because they realize AA is only one pair and the board is somewhat coordinated. He used pot control to his advantage, though I don't think I ever check AA here after my opponent checks to me twice in a row (even after a flop c/r, I'd be more willing to bet thinking he had a weak jack and wanted a cheap showdown or something to that effect). Sorry if I sound harsh, don't mean to be. Your play maybe wasn't that terrible, but it wasn't close to optimal either. But that's why we play and learn.

+1


just keep playin & keep learning...



your reasoning throughout the course of the hand needs ALOT of work...but dont worry, that all comes w/ time & experience...


as far as saying "you played the hand alright" or "better than everyone else here thinks" ---- that's a bit much... we're NOT trying to insult you, we're just pointing out issues pertaining to the hand that we feel need to be addressed... i PERSONALLY feel your friend played it alright, & you played it terribly but lucked out on the river... & then missed a bet...


no offense is intended w/ this message

it's all gravy gents & i greatly appreciate the continuus replies.

I had my tight image in mind when i check-raised the flop, from history playing with these doods when ever i've check-raised i've had a big hand (trips, 2 pair etc.) and used that in this hand. I didn't know wether he did put me on two pair untill the hand was finished and he told me he put me on two pair on the flop from the check-raise. So it did work but as everybody stated i should have check-raised again on the turn and bet out on the river.



Also what does it mean when you say when he just called the raise he used pot control or had pot control..........what exactly does that mean?

He wants to limit the size of the pot and therefore the betting on future streets so as he can get to a showdown as cheaply as possible.

The pot size philosophy, as described by Sklansky and Miller, is "Big Pots and Big Bets are for Big Hands." (No Limit Hold 'Em Theory and Practice)

What we mean (er, well, what I mean... I'm still adjusting to no-limit) is that postflop betting is usually done in relation to the size of the pot. If your opponent puts in the third bet on the turn, he's committing to playing a very large pot with one pair. By just calling, he keeps the pot smaller. That means subsequent bets are going to be smaller, which means he isn't going to have to commit his entire stack.

Pot control is one of the major skills in no-limit, both in terms of keeping pots small when you have only decent hands and in terms of making them big when you have a monster (If you move all in for $2,000 into a $12 pot, it's a pretty easy fold for your opponent. $2,000 into a $2,500 pot is much more of a decision)

That's the other reason why I liked your opponent's play. He had position on you, so there was no need to escalate against you on the flop when you pulled out the check-raise. Then when you showed weakness on the turn, he deduced he had the best hand and made you pay to draw. Then, on the river, he saw that the likely draws just got there, so he checked behind and denied you the chance to put in a healthy check-raise. Really, the way he played it was pretty ideal, regardless of the results.

aahhh, nice and thorough explaination. You guys have been nothing but fantastic. Learning so much!!!


I understand now why he played AA well, compared to the beggining when i thought he played it poorly by poor betting. It's lessons like this that prove very valuable to a learning mans game.


My game has improved alot within these 9 months. My play, when i do play hands properly, proves successfull most of the times as i have made almost a 1k bankroll within the 9 months (which to you guys might not be alot but huge to me as a biggener lol). Seeing your advanced knowledge just makes me want to learn more. I feel i have so much to learn yet.

Yes, the minimum raise post flop was weak...

He didn't minraise on the flop; his wording was "I call and raise 80c on top....." which (though in the language of a string bet) I interpret to mean he raised an additional 80c to make it a 1.20 bet, and the pot size on the turn seems to bear this out.

u got it