I'm looking for some opinions on this hand. I'll post the results later after getting some responses.

*Top 7 pays out for the Prize Pool

This was a 4 table tournament and it's down to the last 2 tables with about 15 players left, 8 at mine. I have about 16000 in chips, the blinds are at 1000-2000, so I'm really shortstacked and I'm just thinking about pushing all-in every hand that I do play, but I pick up J9 spades in middle position and this table has not been very aggressive, not too much raising unless they have a legit hand, so I decide to see a flop with this hand and limp in, surprisingly 3 other players behind me limp as well, small blind folds and big blind checks. The flop comes out K Q 6 with 2 spades and of course I really like this flop as I have a flush draw and a gutshot straight draw, so 13 outs, big blind checks it to me and I"m contemplating how much to bet here as I want a shot at taking down the pot right here if I can. I decide to bet 3000, so I could get players to fold their hands unless they had something and I was planning on pushing on the turn hit/miss if my opponent just called on the flop. All 3 players behind me muck, but the big blind re-raises me all-in. The big blind has the biggest stack at the table and seemed to have a bullying type image, but was a fairly solid player and I felt he had 2 pair most likely. So, basically I'm stuck thinking at this point as I have about 11000 in chips and with the blinds at 1000-2000, my prospects don't look good if I were to fold my hand. Did I really want to gamble with the flush and gutshot draw? I figured I was about 40% to hit here and knew I was a dog to anything the guy had unless it was a stone cold bluff, which was unlikely. I started to look at how much was in the pot and it was about 25000, so I was getting 2.5:1 on my money, mathematically, you only needed to win the hand about 70/30 dog to make this call, but of course there are other factors to consider such as your tournament life being at stake. With all this information do you make the call here? comments such as whether limping in with J9 of spades is the right play in the first place? I considered pushing all-in and trying to take the blinds as well, but decided to try and hit a flop hard with the hand, this was kind of borderline as I could have just as easily folded the hand as well, but I took into consideration that I was shortstacked and needed to do something soon. So, post some responses and I'll post the results a lil later.

kind of dumb to be playing j9s mid pos, limping or otherwise, when you have 8xbb in your stack. fold that crap preflop.

and you kind of bet like a wuss at that flop. if you're gonna semi-bluff, semi-bluff. don't just peck at that pot with your stack. if you had more chips, you could afford to try to bet small and build with pot odds, but you don't. as you'll see from the subsequent analysis, you're going to have to make a scary call anyway, so just push 'em in on that flop if you're going to bet at all. take down a medium-sized pot and start moving up in the standings.

but you're in a shitty situation now, so...

it's tough. there are three possible reads on that push: flush draw (probably the nut draw), the tj str8 draw, or a king (or maybe a nutjob queen, if he's been playing like that). the only one that's especially scary is the bigger flush draw, in which case you're looking at about 20%, off the top of my head (9 outs with the other dude winning if he hits on the other card).

i'd say it's most likely a king, in which case you pretty much have to call. you're getting about 2.5:1, and if you fold you're REALLY shortstacked. if you hit, you're in very good shape all of a sudden.

make the call. but don't put yourself in situations like this again.

kind of dumb to be playing j9s mid pos, limping or otherwise, when you have 8xbb in your stack. fold that crap preflop.

either fold it or move in PF....with a short stack you need to take chances

as for this hand you are already pot-commited and have out regardless

and no offense, you play a horrible short stack

Going on only the info you provided (as usual):

Fold preflop. J9s in middle position with an 8x bb stack is not strong enough to push, imo. Howevever, if you decide to play, you should push, not limp. What would you do if someone came over the top of you all-in? You said the table wasn't that aggressive and there hadn't been much raising unless someone had a legit hand. So, if someone raises behind you, you will be in a tough spot. So, it's push or fold. I say fold.

One more reason to fold is that there are 15 players left and only the top 7 pay. You're not near the bubble play, so it's not as easy to steal blinds here. Probably still some gamble in players wanting to build stacks for their push to 1st place.

Regarding the flop play. OK, so you limped and get a flop you like. So PUSH. If someone behind you has a better hand, so be it...you still have plenty of outs. If I'm following your recap correctly, there was $9000 in the pot when you bet $2000 on a semi bluff. This bet looks weak to me, and the "fairly solid player" probably sensed this and put you all in. I wouldn't put him on 2 pair, however.

Anyway, so he pushes and you have a decision to make. I say fold. You've put approx 30% of your stack into the pot, which isn't pot commitment, imo. Perhaps that's too weak, but that's my line.

As always, I read responses AFTER posting my thoughts (don't want to be biased). That said, I think you make a good case for calling. As I mentioned in my previous post, I didn't put the all-in guy on 2 pair like our hero did. I think he sensed weakness and is pushing with a King. Don't think str8 draw is likely.

Perfect example of why you have to play a short stack more aggressively if you choose to get involved with a hand. Put opponents on the decision, not yourself.

Just to reiterate...fold preflop, but push if you must play.

I'd say fold if you were closer to the money, but you were heavily shortstacked, and still needed to leapfrog 8 people to make the money. Being in the hand at all was a mistake, but at that point, I'd push and take my chances.

As a rule of thumb, I rarely if ever limp when shortstacked. I try to always raise so I can either collect the blinds or define the opponent's hand.

I don't understand the logic of this. Being closer to the money makes this MORE of a push b/c the table tightens up considerably. The fact that we are 8 spots from the money makes this a fold.

An 8xbb push from middle position will get tons of respect at the bubble.

Your comments above are correct if you are the one doing the pushing, pre-flop. Your choice is to CALL all in ot not. In your case, your choice is to evaluate the odds of outlasting 8 players vs. the odds of winning this hand, thereby doubling up and increasing your chances of finishing inthe money or winning.

As far as the logic, you said it yourself:



You're left with 5.5 BB (until blinds increase, which is inevitable with 15 players left). You could try limping along, hoping for a great hand to double up with, but even then you only have 10 BB or so and you're still shortstacked. Stealing blinds might keep you afloat, but you also risk getting caught by the big stack who IS willing to gamble. In addition, you are at an almost full table, which increases your risk of running into a better hand.

I'm just saying that in this position, trying to leapfrog 8 guys with 5.5 BB (for now - that number will decrease as blinds increase), is a longshot at best. IMO, your chances are better right here. Should you win, you will increase to 36K in chips, and have a decent chance of finishing in the money.

Tightness has nothing to do with your situation - it's simply your odds of sticking around longer than 8 players when you have a short stack vs. your odds of winning this hand. The original mistake was playing this hand at all.

I'm confused. I have no idea what part of the hand you are referring to. The push decision I was referring to was preflop.

Hero has 8BB, not 5.5. Again, I have no idea what part of the hand you're referring to. My comments were preflop.

Plus, wtf is up with you taking a jayboogie quote and trying to say it's mine and using it against me?

OK, I've re-read everything, and after all that I think we're on the same page.

First - my bad about the quote - wasn't paying attention..

Second... when I said push in the first place, I was referring to pushing in all his chips to call. This is certainly not a hand I would want to push pre-flop from middle position when you are 8 spots from the money. Fold. Period.

I think our confusion stems from the fact that originally I said push in response to the original post, NOT pre-flop play. You were discussing pre-flop play. I agree with you 100% assuming we are now on the same page.

We cool?

Yeah sorry, was a little defensive there. We're on the same page now.

Before y'all go how bad I played this hand, I know I didn't play it all that well and I'm not an experienced Tournament Player. This was my first Live Tournament that actually mattered. It was a $200 buy-in, $100 re-buys/Add-Ons Tournament and I hadn't played many live tournaments before, so I was definitely inexperienced. I'm more of a cash games player 10/20, 15/30 usually. I've had success at Online Tournaments and it's just totally different playing Live and Online in a Tournament Structure, there's just so many more factors in your decisions and it felt really weird when I was playing since I wasn't used to it. I obviously know I have a lot of work to do, but this was good experience and will help me for future tournaments. It feels a lot better having 1 under your belt, even if you didn't play all that great.

Ok, I think there's always going to be disagreements with how any hand is played and I think this hand is debatable. I don't think I played it well though or at least as good as I could have. Limping in with the J9 of spades was borderline I think and of course in hindsight, I would have been better off folding the hand or raising it at least. The problem was if I made a raise and got re-raised all-in, I'd be in bad shape in this spot, so my other option was limping in and trying to see a cheap flop as I was pretty sure would happen or I could have folded the hand. Now, I hit the flop well, so I probably should have pushed all-in at this point, not sure why I didnt, a little brain freeze I guess and made a small bet instead, got re-raised all-in and I decided to call since I was getting 2.5:1 on my money as a 60/40 dog to the BB's 2 pair Kings and 6's. He improved to a boat on the turn and I was drawing dead. In hindsight, it was unavoidable however I played it post-flop, but I could have folded it pre-flop.

The reason why I played the hand here is because I needed to make something happen and hope to hit a flop hard and double up. Optimally, I'd have pushed all-in or folded every hand when I've got less than 10 BB's, butI decided to do something different and I wanted to get some chips in my hands. Stealing the blinds wasn't going to do much for me at this point. I didn't care about making the money, I wanted to win the tournament. The Prize Pool was Top Heavy and it wasn't worth playing for anything other than 1st. First place took home 6 dimes, while 2nd took down 3 and 7th got 500.

Playing with a short stack is not hard, you either push or fold, in a lot of ways it's a lot easier to do, you don't even have to think. I probably tried to be a lil too creative in this spot and it costed me. I just hate tournament poker sometimes, I was deault KK earlier while I had a big stack, lost a battle against AQ and that took away 2/3 of my chips to put me in this spot in the first place and I wouldn't have had to worry about this hand at all. It wasn't all bad though, I horsed my friend 5% and he won the whole thing, so I made a lil money for the night still.