I am interested in feedback on the following situation:

$2/$5 NLH Cash Game

In middle position you find KK with two limpers. You raise to $35.

The Rock two from the button makes it $85 total and the person to your right makes the call for an additional $80. You are positive that the Rock has AA given his play over the past several hours. You are also positive the person to your right has a top pair.

Each of them have about $350 remaining and you have them covered.

What do you do?

If you are POSITVE that Rock has AA, then why would you do anything BUT fold? I think that with a raise, re-raise, and a call....you can be pretty sure that you are beat....Maybe I am wrong, but if you are beat, you are beat....on to the next hand....

ya i cant see any reason to put more money in if thats the situation

Well given that action the best you can hope for is to be up against the other KK and QQ or the other KK and someone very loose playing some marginaly hand hoping for a great flop to win a huge pot. Something important to know is what is your perceived image at the table? And the other villain. If you've been playing very loose then the Rock may be willing to raise with QQ in that position.

Will AA give you all his chips if a K flops? What about the other guy?

I ask, because it's only $50 more to call, in what could reasonably be close to a $1,000 pot.

If AA will give you all his chips if a K flops, you might have the implied odds to hit.

If AA won't give you all his chips if a K flops, when else will he not give you all his chips? Are there other situations where you can call with the idea of making him fold with a large bet?

Just how large do we think the other guy's pair is? Less than kings presumably?

It is possible that either holds AK?

I think you could potentially make an argument for calling here based on implied odds.

point is nto bad, but if we are gonna do what ifs, what if flop is A K 7 or 10 J Q vs two other opponents if he was sure he was beat before these are not good situations to be in vs 2ppl.

Sometimes, you just gotta gamble, bubba.

But how are you so "sure" it's pocket rockets? Could he be playing, say Big Slick??? ANYTHING other than A/A, and you're ahead.

That being said, depending on relative stack size, etc., if a King hits the flop, it's a BIG pay day for you.

There are some people who play QQ,AK and JJ the same way they play AA and AK but thats all based on read and feel

Shove.

Fold preflop.

BBFIDTS

If I'm positive the guy has AA and will likely stack off I'll play ATC for up to 10% of effective stacks. Your situation here is further complicated by the guy on your right. If you put him on JJ+ though his presence helps more than it hurts since he's far more likely to have JJ or QQ than KK or AA. If his range is something like 99+, AJs+, JTs+ his presence is far more troublesome since he can make a lot of hands that beat you even if you flop a set.

But after all we're here to gamble not sit around so call.

Interesting that you bring that up. A few days ago, I looked down in the cutoff to find the Hilton sisters (Paris had recently flown the coup). There had been one limper in front from seat 3. I decide to slow play and just call, then the small blind raises to 3 x. Ah ha! I love this play--act weak, wait for a raise, then pounce on the re-raise. But seat #3 beat me to it by doubling the SB's raise. What was I to do but shove? To my amazement (somewhat) the SB calls my all in (he had me covered by about 20%) and then seat #3 called.

Yikes! WTF??

As we all flop over our cards, it's my worse nightmare.

Seat 3 = K/K
SB = A/A

And lil' ole me with my pitiful Q/Q, which looked even worse when a third king hit the flop.

Oh well, you win some and lose some.

I have been known to fold queens when facing powerful re-raises--but it's player and game specific. Here, I felt both other players probably had Broadway non-pairs, or perhaps smaller suited connectors, based on their relatively loose play up to then.

The point is--you're right. Almost all the time, I am going to play Q/Q just the same as A/A, if not a little stronger, because I want A/rag to FOLD IT pre flop. (same for K/rag for that matter)

Move this to the NL forum.

And if you can't shove this and reload, don't play anymore.

I will now finish the story:

I did decide to fold and the flop came KJX. Both guys got all in and turned over AA and JJ. I would have won the pot.

I had the dealer hold my cards and flip them after the flop. The table then decided to tell me how wrong my move was. I suspect if I have avoided disaster they would have praised me. My math tells me it was a marginal call assuming a K and a J is unlikely to flop (in other words both stacks are unlikely to be in play).

I am and was happy with my decision. In hindsight I would be about $800 richer had I called.

Thanks for the insight and comments.

I tried to tell ya dude

Folding KK preflop is -ev.....its just that simple

VNH

Folding KK preflop for 50bb stacks is -EV.

Fold pre-flop.

---EDIT----


Damn: I'm too late... and I was one-upped with the BBFIDTS.

pussy

What a terrible fold!

"My math tells me it was a marginal call..."

Pot size= @ about $210

$50 to call

Heads up agains the Rock (AA)you were 81:19 slightly less than 4:1
With the Donkey in there also it was more like Rock- 67% You- 18% Donkey- 15% (thanks to Cardplayer for help in calculations)


You were getting over 4:1 to call on your money and the worse situation is that you are SLIGHTLY less than 4:1 HU. If you weren't willing to gamble with those types of odds take up pottery. (sw)

honestly thats a really tight fold, its only $50 more just to see the flop I dont know why you dont just call if your last to act and there wont be anymore raises. This one guy raised it up to $100 preflop with no other raises in a 2-5 game. So I know he has aces because he made some statement about "im just going to raise it up real big because u dont need to call" or something like that. Anyways I have [7][7] and call flop comes a 7 i get all his chips +$800

You're probably pissed that everyone is ragging on you but this post says it all. You were getting the odds to see the flop (call) with the second best hand possible. You also could have shoved but you were apparently sure that rocky had AA so that's debateable based on your read.

You never answered the question about what your image was. If others thought of you the way that you preceive mr rocky then your AA assumption is ok, but anything less than a major tight image and your opponents could very easily being playing as low as 10's, imo.

Regardless, a $50 call, as a minimum, is automatic in this case with the pot giving you those odds.

By the way, if you're going to make a *really* tight, pissy fold, don't get the dealer to save your hand, then show everyone after. Talk about giving away free information! If you make the pre-flop fold, then pretend you laid down AJ or 88 or something else easy to part with.

Also, a participle is something you should never end your sentence with.

Prepositions too.

If this is at a casino there is no way in hell I fold. People are talking about how ppl play JJ and AK the same way as AA, well, there are a whole lot of people who play QJo that way too; especially in a casino. If you can't afford to make that call and take that hit, you need to move down or quit playing. Also, $50 more, 4:1 - easy call, personally I'm pushing and if I have to reload, I'll reload.

I love when that happens.

the classic, "alright - Also, a participle is something you should never end your sentence with, BIATCH"
J

Thanks for the feedback.

While the odds are correct to the river, I looked at the odds on the flop that results in a 10 - 1 odds (if I did my math right). At that point I figured I would be priced out given prior hand action (assuming a $100+ bet on the flop).

As for the show...it paid off. I knew what I was doing. I had been stealing pots and bought a ticket to continue with that show.

I would call at least to see the flop against 2 players then evaluate the situation.

meh u were getting a good price. Hardly committing yourself preflop either. I make the call with 22 for god sakes.

Why steal little pots when you can rake a big one?

One thing you're not including in your assessment of Mr. Rock. If he's so tight that you're able to put him on an exact hand preflop, he probably plays very few hands and he'd probably get married to the ones he does play - this is very good for implied odds.

Ding Ding Ding ...

LOL @ me. NH

I disagree. If you've been stealing pots, then you just showed the table, "Yep, I like to raise pre-flop and if you reraise me I'll even lay down kings."

What you've done is given your opponents permission to resteal your raises relentlessly.

i haven't read alll replies thus far but i dont see how this is anything but a call / shove...


seriously, do you really put the fuccin guy on aces man? he can't have tens? jacks? queens?



how often do you really fold kings before the flop?


i'm personally 3 betting this / shoving right here...



if he's got aces he's got aces... that's poker... RELOAD!

see above