5/10 NL
Pretty sure the villain thinks I'm full of crap each time I put chips into the pot and he's only been sitting with me for an hour.
Loose player UTG makes it 30, I'm somewhere in LP and am one of 3 callers of the raise. Villain is in the SB.
I have 99
My stack is $1600
Villain has unknown smaller stack.
Flop - 5 Players - $120
A96 rainbow (suits irrelevant)
Everyone checks to me, I bet $80, villain calls, everyone else folds.
Turn - 2 players - $280
A96 (6)
Villain checks, Hero bets $120, Villain calls
River - 2 players $520
A966 (6)
Villain checks, Hero?
Full Version: Value Betting
my poker senses is telling me 400.
This might be one of those situations where you can massively overbet the pot for like $700. He's likely got an ace in this spot and will likely call you expecting a split pot at worst. He "thinks you're full of crap", so he's going nowhere if he has just about anything.
QUOTE (Webslinger516 @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 9:10 PM) 
This might be one of those situations where you can massively overbet the pot for like $700. He's likely got an ace in this spot and will likely call you expecting a split pot at worst. He "thinks you're full of crap", so he's going nowhere if he has just about anything.
The AA666 is paying you off big time.
The 6666 is getting paid big time.
How was your night?
QUOTE (mtdesmoines @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 10:19 PM)
The AA666 is paying you off big time.
The 6666 is getting paid big time.
How was your night?
The 6666 is getting paid big time.
How was your night?
Pretty sure this is a AA666 situation. He's played this extremely passively and it seems OP's read was that Villain was mainly in there to "keep him honest". I think trip 6's would have check-raised the turn or at least lead out on the river, hoping not to miss a value bet. It's certainly possible he got runner runner quads, but I would assume an Ace. If he checkraises the river, I'd just start crying.
Overbet. Push all in. I dont think youre losing any value because nothing else is calling you beside an ace and quads. If you use a weak value bet he MIGHT call with a PP if he is REALLY BAD but you lose value when he cold calls with an ace.
If he has quads oh well. That would just be sick
If he has quads oh well. That would just be sick
Given the board and villain, let's bet $450....overbets also aren't a bad idea either.
"Unknown smaller stack." What the hell is that!? 
Why the small turn bet?
I'm going with the overbet. If he started with one buyin, he has 750 or so left. It doesn't look like he's going to try to steal this one with a busted straight draw, so no point in throwing out a smaller bet for him to go over the top of.
I think if you put it all in, you get called a lot by Ax.
Why the small turn bet?
I'm going with the overbet. If he started with one buyin, he has 750 or so left. It doesn't look like he's going to try to steal this one with a busted straight draw, so no point in throwing out a smaller bet for him to go over the top of.
I think if you put it all in, you get called a lot by Ax.
I'm kinda curious about the turn bet as well.
I like a bet of $380
I like a bet of $380
I like the overbet. I can't see how he puts you on the case 6, and if he holds an ace that would mean you would have to hold the 2 remaining aces or 99 to beat him. The key is whether or not anything he calls $400 with will call a push.
Off topic, but didn't your sig say one session for -700 a day or 2 ago. Now it says +300 for one session. Wha happened?
Off topic, but didn't your sig say one session for -700 a day or 2 ago. Now it says +300 for one session. Wha happened?
I'm debating between 400-500 or an overbet of the pot. I'd put his range as AJ-AT most likely but could also have a pocket pair. Any other hands aren't paying us off. If I was pretty sure he had an ace I'd even think about just shoving because he's not folding.
It just feels like he can't let go of his ace, especially given your read that he thinks you never have it. I like a bet of 600-700.
It just feels like he can't let go of his ace, especially given your read that he thinks you never have it. I like a bet of 600-700.
QUOTE (krup24 @ Wednesday, June 6th, 2007, 8:16 AM)
I'm kinda curious about the turn bet as well.
I like the turn bet, we don't want to lose him. He's drawing to 2 outs or 0. A small bets fattens the pot on the river a little or gives him a change to attack weakness.
The turn bet was small becuase I thought his BEST holding was AT and that it was likely that he was playing the 9 kicker with his A and I dind't want to lose him.
On the river, somehow, I grossly miscalculated the pot size because I intended to overbet, knowing that he probably wasn't folding. For some reason, I thought $400 was an overbet. I don't know where my mind was. He called as soon as my bills hit the center of the felt and said "I call, I have an A too" and I was immediately angry becuase I knew since there was NO thought process in his head, I easily could've bet at least $200, maybe $300 or $400 more.
On the river, somehow, I grossly miscalculated the pot size because I intended to overbet, knowing that he probably wasn't folding. For some reason, I thought $400 was an overbet. I don't know where my mind was. He called as soon as my bills hit the center of the felt and said "I call, I have an A too" and I was immediately angry becuase I knew since there was NO thought process in his head, I easily could've bet at least $200, maybe $300 or $400 more.
This is the Zeebo Theorem or whatever it's called - only the rare player can fold a fullhouse so if you've got one of the better ones just move in.
QUOTE (trystero @ Wednesday, June 6th, 2007, 7:24 AM)
This is the Zeebo Theorem or whatever it's called - only the rare player can fold a fullhouse so if you've got one of the better ones just move in.
If he's anything but an idiot (which is debatable becuase of how fast he called my $400) then he should fold if I move all in. Yeah, I'm gonna do it with AK or Ax as well, but he's never going to win the pot outright, so he'd be calling $400 to win like $450 (which is about half of the pot) and that's a losing proposition if I ever turn up with something other than Ax here.
As a side note, the correct play for the villain in the hand is to lead the river for something like $100 or $150 so that he can safely fold if he's raised becuase his only other choice is to check/fold or check/call whatever bet I make and he will just be guessing about my hand.
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Wednesday, June 6th, 2007, 10:29 AM)
If he's anything but an idiot (which is debatable becuase of how fast he called my $400) then he should fold if I move all in. Yeah, I'm gonna do it with AK or Ax as well, but he's never going to win the pot outright, so he'd be calling $400 to win like $450 (which is about half of the pot) and that's a losing proposition if I ever turn up with something other than Ax here.
As a side note, the correct play for the villain in the hand is to lead the river for something like $100 or $150 so that he can safely fold if he's raised becuase his only other choice is to check/fold or check/call whatever bet I make and he will just be guessing about my hand.
As a side note, the correct play for the villain in the hand is to lead the river for something like $100 or $150 so that he can safely fold if he's raised becuase his only other choice is to check/fold or check/call whatever bet I make and he will just be guessing about my hand.
Right, I agree with you that he'd be an idiot for calling a shove, but fullhouses make people do stupid things. You do play 5/10 so the caliber of player is higher than what I play, even live which is never higher than 2/4.
Supposing you're villain and you're holding AQ here, how do you play earlier streets against someone with your image?
push like everytime.
edit. ainec.
- Jordan
edit. ainec.
- Jordan
I don't think I'm an idiot, but when I played NL live for my first time, I called off a 150 BB stack on a TTxAT board with AQ, and he had TJ, so yeah. Even good players make calls like that.
Also, I posted that hand, and everyone said it was an easy call for me.
So, I don't see why we're thinking he folds an ace here.
I shove. Maybe Hollywood it a bit and tell him he doesn't have the ace or the 6 or something. I dunno.
Also, I posted that hand, and everyone said it was an easy call for me.
So, I don't see why we're thinking he folds an ace here.
I shove. Maybe Hollywood it a bit and tell him he doesn't have the ace or the 6 or something. I dunno.
def. push. he has to be expecting a split and will call everytime.
QUOTE
The Full House Theorem
Nobody is capable of folding a full house on any street for any sized bet, ever. Don't fool yourself into thinking they can. I'm not even referring to NUT full houses (eg. board reads 29522, if your opponent has the loan 5, they will almost always call allin; if they folded, it was likely do to timing out or a misclick). Remember: full houses aren't too common, and after all, you might be bluffing!
Ways to exploit:
If you expect someone has a full house, and you can't beat a full house never ever bluff. If you expect someone has a full house and you can beat their likely full house, go allin. Let's say the board is 29522, and you have TT or better, go allin no matter what the size of the pot is, b/c they can't fold.
Nobody is capable of folding a full house on any street for any sized bet, ever. Don't fool yourself into thinking they can. I'm not even referring to NUT full houses (eg. board reads 29522, if your opponent has the loan 5, they will almost always call allin; if they folded, it was likely do to timing out or a misclick). Remember: full houses aren't too common, and after all, you might be bluffing!
Ways to exploit:
If you expect someone has a full house, and you can't beat a full house never ever bluff. If you expect someone has a full house and you can beat their likely full house, go allin. Let's say the board is 29522, and you have TT or better, go allin no matter what the size of the pot is, b/c they can't fold.
The above is the 'Zeebo theorem'.
River is an easy allin.
QUOTE (Verdimme @ Wednesday, June 6th, 2007, 9:20 AM)
The above is the 'Zeebo theorem'.
River is an easy allin.
River is an easy allin.
I agree with the fact that I messed up by not pushing.
I also agree with the theorem in principle for lower stakes. Once you start playing higher, players (correctly so) become capable of folding hands like full houses and it's sometimes correct to make solid value bets instead of risking the loss of action when you push.
I know that this situation was different since he was beaten only by AA, 99 and 6x and my most likely hand was Ax so I should've pushed.
Zeebo theorem held very true for DN in all of High Stakes Poker where he had a full-house at the river.
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Wednesday, June 6th, 2007, 8:49 AM)
I agree with the fact that I messed up by not pushing.
I also agree with the theorem in principle for lower stakes. Once you start playing higher, players (correctly so) become capable of folding hands like full houses and it's sometimes correct to make solid value bets instead of risking the loss of action when you push.
I know that this situation was different since he was beaten only by AA, 99 and 6x and my most likely hand was Ax so I should've pushed.
I also agree with the theorem in principle for lower stakes. Once you start playing higher, players (correctly so) become capable of folding hands like full houses and it's sometimes correct to make solid value bets instead of risking the loss of action when you push.
I know that this situation was different since he was beaten only by AA, 99 and 6x and my most likely hand was Ax so I should've pushed.
One name. Ok, a few.
David Benyamine. Patrik Antonious.
--
I agree it changes as you move up some, but yea...this situation should be a push.
- Jordan
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Wednesday, June 6th, 2007, 9:49 AM)
I agree with the fact that I messed up by not pushing.
I also agree with the theorem in principle for lower stakes. Once you start playing higher, players (correctly so) become capable of folding hands like full houses and it's sometimes correct to make solid value bets instead of risking the loss of action when you push.
I know that this situation was different since he was beaten only by AA, 99 and 6x and my most likely hand was Ax so I should've pushed.
I also agree with the theorem in principle for lower stakes. Once you start playing higher, players (correctly so) become capable of folding hands like full houses and it's sometimes correct to make solid value bets instead of risking the loss of action when you push.
I know that this situation was different since he was beaten only by AA, 99 and 6x and my most likely hand was Ax so I should've pushed.
QUOTE (Webslinger516 @ Wednesday, June 6th, 2007, 9:52 AM)
Zeebo theorem held very true for DN in all of High Stakes Poker where he had a full-house at the river.
QUOTE (Jordan @ Wednesday, June 6th, 2007, 10:38 AM)
One name. Ok, a few.
David Benyamine. Patrik Antonious.
--
I agree it changes as you move up some, but yea...this situation should be a push.
- Jordan
David Benyamine. Patrik Antonious.
--
I agree it changes as you move up some, but yea...this situation should be a push.
- Jordan
I kinda dont agree with this right here right now.
villain has only invested 230 into this pot. you push for 1200 more? i mean, if i held an A, my 1st reaction is, "wow, really?" I have 23 BB's invested in this pot and if i call the best i'l get is a chop. (or so i think).
I'd probably say, good bet and fold.
I like a value bet of 450 here. AINEC.
all in, will be wasted unless this guy is gawd awful playing 5-10
QUOTE (Royal_Tour @ Wednesday, June 6th, 2007, 11:29 AM)
I kinda dont agree with this right here right now.
villain has only invested 230 into this pot. you push for 1200 more? i mean, if i held an A, my 1st reaction is, "wow, really?" I have 23 BB's invested in this pot and if i call the best i'l get is a chop. (or so i think).
I'd probably say, good bet and fold.
I like a value bet of 450 here. AINEC.
all in, will be wasted unless this guy is gawd awful playing 5-10
villain has only invested 230 into this pot. you push for 1200 more? i mean, if i held an A, my 1st reaction is, "wow, really?" I have 23 BB's invested in this pot and if i call the best i'l get is a chop. (or so i think).
I'd probably say, good bet and fold.
I like a value bet of 450 here. AINEC.
all in, will be wasted unless this guy is gawd awful playing 5-10
Right, the only question is how much we think the guy would call. OP might have bet the perfect amount, who knows? The fact that he called super fast thinking that his Ace entitled him to a chop leads us to believe he would have called more. That's why I proposed betting $700, which I THINK would be called.
After I made the bet, I knew I f-cked it up. He would have called for his stack becuause he didn't want to be outplayed.
Also, his stack-size is smaller than Acid's. If he's around the buy in, he's calling off 750ish instead of 1200.
QUOTE (Naismith @ Wednesday, June 6th, 2007, 12:32 PM)
Also, his stack-size is smaller than Acid's. If he's around the buy in, he's calling off 750ish instead of 1200.
It was really hard to tell how much he had left over there. It was probably like 800 or 900 more.
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Wednesday, June 6th, 2007, 11:27 AM)
After I made the bet, I knew I f-cked it up. He would have called for his stack becuause he didn't want to be outplayed.
The bet here is read-dependent. You leave clues in the OP that he would have called off his stack.
QUOTE (mtdesmoines @ Wednesday, June 6th, 2007, 1:32 PM)
The bet here is read-dependent. You leave clues in the OP that he would have called off his stack.
lol also the caption: "Figure out how strong they are and make 'em pay!"
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 11:08 PM)
5/10 NL
Pretty sure the villain thinks I'm full of crap each time I put chips into the pot and he's only been sitting with me for an hour.
Loose player UTG makes it 30, I'm somewhere in LP and am one of 3 callers of the raise. Villain is in the SB.
I have 99
My stack is $1600
Villain has unknown smaller stack.
Flop - 5 Players - $120
A96 rainbow (suits irrelevant)
Everyone checks to me, I bet $80, villain calls, everyone else folds.
Turn - 2 players - $280
A96 (6)
Villain checks, Hero bets $120, Villain calls
River - 2 players $520
A966 (6)
Villain checks, Hero?
Pretty sure the villain thinks I'm full of crap each time I put chips into the pot and he's only been sitting with me for an hour.
Loose player UTG makes it 30, I'm somewhere in LP and am one of 3 callers of the raise. Villain is in the SB.
I have 99
My stack is $1600
Villain has unknown smaller stack.
Flop - 5 Players - $120
A96 rainbow (suits irrelevant)
Everyone checks to me, I bet $80, villain calls, everyone else folds.
Turn - 2 players - $280
A96 (6)
Villain checks, Hero bets $120, Villain calls
River - 2 players $520
A966 (6)
Villain checks, Hero?
over-bet the pot. He likely isn't folding an A. He's either got a low PP or he's got the A...I would bet 600. The main reason I suggest over-betting is because he never believes you.
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