QUOTE (Zach6668 @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 3:04 PM) 
I had it as $1445/$3780... but I don't feel like going over it again, lol.
Either way... SHOVEL!
Either way... SHOVEL!
That's right.
I'll edit.
Full Version: I Play Big Pots
That's right.
I'll edit.
I already said I shoveled, even though I felt at the time (without all of these fancy-pants anaysis thingies) that it was not the best play.
I think the action went something like this:
Acid: Ok, I think it's gonna be a raise of $945 back to you. Yeah, I'm all in.
Villain: (this occurred instantaneously as I completed my sentence) I call. Run it.
Jason to Acid: I hope you have what I think you have
Acid to Jason: I guarantee you I don't have what you think I have. He has what you think I have, guaranteed.
Jason: Laughter
Turn: Q
River 2
Acid: Yeah, you're gonna win this one
Villain tables 6
7
Acid to Jason: I told you he had what you thought I had.
Acid to Villain: Nice hand.
I think the action went something like this:
Acid: Ok, I think it's gonna be a raise of $945 back to you. Yeah, I'm all in.
Villain: (this occurred instantaneously as I completed my sentence) I call. Run it.
Jason to Acid: I hope you have what I think you have
Acid to Jason: I guarantee you I don't have what you think I have. He has what you think I have, guaranteed.
Jason: Laughter
Turn: Q
River 2
Acid: Yeah, you're gonna win this one
Villain tables 6
7 Acid to Jason: I told you he had what you thought I had.
Acid to Villain: Nice hand.
CODE
Board: 5c 8d 9d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 28.838% 28.38% 00.45% 281 4.50 { Qd5d }
Hand 1: 71.162% 70.71% 00.45% 700 4.50 { 7d6d }
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 28.838% 28.38% 00.45% 281 4.50 { Qd5d }
Hand 1: 71.162% 70.71% 00.45% 700 4.50 { 7d6d }
Even that's not a disaster.
You paid $1445 for $1090 in equity. -355 in EV.
QUOTE (David_Nicoson @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 12:45 PM)
Even that's not a disaster.
You paid $1445 for $1090 in equity. -355 in EV.
You paid $1445 for $1090 in equity. -355 in EV.
Not a disaster, but it is the absolute worst situation for me to find myself in. I mean, with hands like that, I never really drawing *that* badly, but this was as bad as it could be.
Any -EV situation is also bad in a cash game and I certainly don't wanna be playing huge pots where I'm gonna lose $355 on average.
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 12:48 PM)
Not a disaster, but it is the absolute worst situation for me to find myself in. I mean, with hands like that, I never really drawing *that* badly, but this was as bad as it could be.
Any -EV situation is also bad in a cash game and I certainly don't wanna be playing huge pots where I'm gonna lose $355 on average.
Any -EV situation is also bad in a cash game and I certainly don't wanna be playing huge pots where I'm gonna lose $355 on average.
Shockingly your hand doesn't run very well against the nuts. Very tough spot, especially not sucking out.
QUOTE (tskillz187 @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 12:53 PM)
Shockingly your hand doesn't run very well against the nuts. Very tough spot, especially not sucking out.
I wouldn't mind the nuts, but that greedy bastard has the nuts AND 2 of my diamond outs. What a jerk.
Wow what a dream flop for Villain. Nh.
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 10:09 AM)
Last night, 5/10 NL, I had just busted the resident Donkey with 69dd against his 67cc on a board of 6436J when we got it all in on the turn. It's important to have the boss 9 kicker like that btw.
The villain in this hand hadn't played a ton of hands, but the ones that he had played, he had come in raising from the button to like $60 after there were 3 or more limpers. I saw him do it twice and I decided that he didn't need a hand to do it. I saw one of the hands he showed was QJo, so I figured he was correctly playing his position.
Acid: $1800 ish
Villain: Covers ish
There are 3 limpers and the villain makes it $60. The SB calls and I take a flier in the BB with Q5dd becuase I think that the villain plays semi transparently post flop and he knows how to laydown a hand. I obviously don't make a habit out of calling in spots like this, but when the villain is a weak-ish post flop player and I am sure it'll be a multiway pot, I'll take some shots. It's also great for the advertising budget.
Sure enough, 2 of the other 3 come along and we have a 5 way pot.
Flop (5 Players) $300
5 8 9
We all check to Mr. Preflop raiser and he doesn't disappoint and he bets $100. The SB folds. I laugh inwardly at his comically small bet that cannot possibly protect any kind of hand on that board and I raise to $300 total. It folds back to the villain who asks how deep I am. I inform him that I have like $1400-$1500 left. At this point he reraises me $500 more to $800 total. I stop inwardly laughing around this time. I have $1445 left at this point, so if I wanted to raise him, it's going to be another $945 for him to call. What are you going to do here?
Things I would prefer to not receive comments on include:
Preflop action. I know it's sketchy as all hell, but I had distinct reasons for coming into the pot in the first place.
Leading the flop. I will often lead here, but I figured that the best way to get chips into the pot in this case was with a checkraise.
I would love comments on:
What we think the villain's range is
What my action should be & why
How I manage to post hands where I contemplate putting in $1800 after hitting bottom pair with Q5 soooooooted in a raised pot.
The villain in this hand hadn't played a ton of hands, but the ones that he had played, he had come in raising from the button to like $60 after there were 3 or more limpers. I saw him do it twice and I decided that he didn't need a hand to do it. I saw one of the hands he showed was QJo, so I figured he was correctly playing his position.
Acid: $1800 ish
Villain: Covers ish
There are 3 limpers and the villain makes it $60. The SB calls and I take a flier in the BB with Q5dd becuase I think that the villain plays semi transparently post flop and he knows how to laydown a hand. I obviously don't make a habit out of calling in spots like this, but when the villain is a weak-ish post flop player and I am sure it'll be a multiway pot, I'll take some shots. It's also great for the advertising budget.
Sure enough, 2 of the other 3 come along and we have a 5 way pot.
Flop (5 Players) $300
5
8 9 We all check to Mr. Preflop raiser and he doesn't disappoint and he bets $100. The SB folds. I laugh inwardly at his comically small bet that cannot possibly protect any kind of hand on that board and I raise to $300 total. It folds back to the villain who asks how deep I am. I inform him that I have like $1400-$1500 left. At this point he reraises me $500 more to $800 total. I stop inwardly laughing around this time. I have $1445 left at this point, so if I wanted to raise him, it's going to be another $945 for him to call. What are you going to do here?
Things I would prefer to not receive comments on include:
Preflop action. I know it's sketchy as all hell, but I had distinct reasons for coming into the pot in the first place.
Leading the flop. I will often lead here, but I figured that the best way to get chips into the pot in this case was with a checkraise.
I would love comments on:
What we think the villain's range is
What my action should be & why
How I manage to post hands where I contemplate putting in $1800 after hitting bottom pair with Q5 soooooooted in a raised pot.
that's a tircky spot. You've seen him do it with QJos before which isn't 'any 2 cards'...it's a decent hand to punish limpers with. Most weak players would flat call on the button with QJ after a bunch of limpers, but the stronger play would be to raise a pot sized bet, which is what he did. So, I think his range is....88+...this includes 2 sets and a bunch of over pockets... Ax of diamonds...maybe 89s.....I don't see this EVER being a bluff. Maybe, even A9s is possible in his range...reads could verify or disprove this though....I'll run this through poker stove..
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
45,540 games 0.031 secs 1,469,032 games/sec
Board: 5h 8d 9d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.592% 45.20% 00.40% 20582 180.50 { Qd5d }
Hand 1: 54.408% 54.01% 00.40% 24597 180.50 { 88+, AdKd, AdJd, AdTd, A9s, 98s, 76s }
you're equity is 46 if you assume my range to be correct...so with all the money in the pot already, you have to push. I think with a low PP such as 55 he'd just limp and try to set mine. also, you have a 5 which makes it very unlikely he does, and which is why i didn't include it in his range
OK, so I just have to comment on the preflop play.
How can you flat call there? You obviously have the PFR high-carded.
How can you flat call there? You obviously have the PFR high-carded.
QUOTE (GabeTheKid @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 4:13 PM)
. . . you have a 5 which makes it very unlikely he does, and which is why i didn't include it in his range
Pokerstove takes this into account. Prock is the man.
QUOTE (David_Nicoson @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 12:13 PM)
OK, so I just have to comment on the preflop play.
How can you flat call there? You obviously have the PFR high-carded.
How can you flat call there? You obviously have the PFR high-carded.
LMAO, I was just thinking that. Then I realized that that's the next ****ing level of thinking, being able to make that play.
QUOTE (David_Nicoson @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 1:13 PM)
OK, so I just have to comment on the preflop play.
How can you flat call there? You obviously have the PFR high-carded.
How can you flat call there? You obviously have the PFR high-carded.
I was trapping him?
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 11:27 AM)
Turn: Q
River 2
River 2
OK, so cold calling the flop and seeing a turn, we're all definitely shoving anyway.
Haven't read replies but I'm probably pushing here. Why would he bet an overpair/set so weak on such a drawy board? Most likely he himself has a draw and we have every draw killed pretty much since we also caught a pair. He might have a hand like 10 J .
If he donked up the flop and does have something like a set/overpair we're not necessarily in horrible shape. I think we're barely behind/decently ahead of his range which I put on 10Jo,10Jdd-10Add,45dd,56dd,67dd. The only hand that has us killed is 67dd. If we throw in some other garbagy draw hands or the fact he might be suspecting you making a play on him and he is doing this with trash, I think we have a +EV push.
PS I think we still have some fold equity also which is great.
J . If he donked up the flop and does have something like a set/overpair we're not necessarily in horrible shape. I think we're barely behind/decently ahead of his range which I put on 10Jo,10Jdd-10Add,45dd,56dd,67dd. The only hand that has us killed is 67dd. If we throw in some other garbagy draw hands or the fact he might be suspecting you making a play on him and he is doing this with trash, I think we have a +EV push.
PS I think we still have some fold equity also which is great.
QUOTE (Lavitz @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 2:39 PM)
Haven't read replies but I'm probably pushing here. Why would he bet an overpair/set so weak on such a drawy board? Most likely he himself has a draw and we have every draw killed pretty much since we also caught a pair. He might have a hand like 10 J .
If he donked up the flop and does have something like a set/overpair we're not necessarily in horrible shape. I think we're barely behind/decently ahead of his range which I put on 10Jo,10Jdd-10Add,45dd,56dd,67dd. The only hand that has us killed is 67dd. If we throw in some other garbagy draw hands or the fact he might be suspecting you making a play on him and he is doing this with trash, I think we have a +EV push.
PS I think we still have some fold equity also which is great.
J . If he donked up the flop and does have something like a set/overpair we're not necessarily in horrible shape. I think we're barely behind/decently ahead of his range which I put on 10Jo,10Jdd-10Add,45dd,56dd,67dd. The only hand that has us killed is 67dd. If we throw in some other garbagy draw hands or the fact he might be suspecting you making a play on him and he is doing this with trash, I think we have a +EV push.
PS I think we still have some fold equity also which is great.
I know this thread got long in a hurry, but you should read some of the other responses because you basically nail down that I likely have no FE, and that almost all of his range is made up of sets, 67 (suited or not) and the JTdd draw, against which I'm not in good shape.
It's still a push.
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 1:51 PM)
I know this thread got long in a hurry, but you should read some of the other responses because you basically nail down that I likely have no FE, and that almost all of his range is made up of sets, 67 (suited or not) and the JTdd draw, against which I'm not in good shape.
The more i look at it I think hes likely to play a draw like this so I'm gonna take sets out of his range because that flop lead would be horrible for a set. AKd,JKd,K10d,A10d all probably play this same way. I think someone argued if he had one of these hands that he would be more likely to cold call your reraise but I think that is pretty weak. From a general standpoint, he can be seen on a steal, throwing out a standard c-bet and you can be reraising his c-bet with a wide variety of hands, especially since you're LAG. Therefore, if I am him, it's better to reraise and put you on a decision with a lot of fold equity rather then cold call and see a turn card, which being a blank (and most of the time it will be), means he probably gets pushed off a big pot.
I'm only folding this if the guy is a complete nit.
PS. Would he really raise 67o? I didn't put that in his range because I just thought it was a bit too weak, even for this guy.
QUOTE (Zach6668 @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 2:32 PM)
It's still a push.
QFT. He had the worst possible hand and even then you weren't dominated. With so much money in I think you're getting odds to push this everytime.
My immediate reaction is similar to yours, AK. "Oooh...pair+FD+overcard...go crazy." However, I've found myself occasionally overplaying these situations when I don't have FE (which essentially makes them bad coin flips). I think they've attempted to prove to you that the math says shove. And I don't hate it, but I think you also did a pretty convincing job for me before you revealed the results.
The one thing that I'd comment on...the c-bet's fishy. When c-bets are fishy, I'm much more reluctant to put in the raise. I know you said that you wanted to shut out the other two in case they had diamonds, but I approach the hand somewhat more cautiously OOP against a confusing bet. I do think our hand is big, but not so big that we have to raise. Granted, we're still probably getting in a lot of trouble (if not going broke) given this turn. That said, I can easily see myself making the same raise.
The one thing that I'd comment on...the c-bet's fishy. When c-bets are fishy, I'm much more reluctant to put in the raise. I know you said that you wanted to shut out the other two in case they had diamonds, but I approach the hand somewhat more cautiously OOP against a confusing bet. I do think our hand is big, but not so big that we have to raise. Granted, we're still probably getting in a lot of trouble (if not going broke) given this turn. That said, I can easily see myself making the same raise.
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Tuesday, June 5th, 2007, 8:55 PM)
I wouldn't mind the nuts, but that greedy bastard has the nuts AND 2 of my diamond outs. What a jerk.
He actually 'had' 3 of your diamond outs. The 10 was no good for you.
That's super-jerky
QUOTE (CobaltBlue @ Wednesday, June 6th, 2007, 3:40 AM)
The one thing that I'd comment on...the c-bet's fishy. When c-bets are fishy, I'm much more reluctant to put in the raise. I know you said that you wanted to shut out the other two in case they had diamonds, but I approach the hand somewhat more cautiously OOP against a confusing bet. I do think our hand is big, but not so big that we have to raise. Granted, we're still probably getting in a lot of trouble (if not going broke) given this turn. That said, I can easily see myself making the same raise.
I think the thing is that I was OOP. A hand like this is so hard to play OOP becuase I really only have a pair of 5s, which is probably worthless. Once you throw that out, I'm playing a naked flush draw OOP. I think OOP, I feel like I had to raise it but if I had position, I think I'd have options. I dunno. I really feel like I misplayed the hand becuase I felt that he was calling a push like 95% of the time and he was gonna show me a set or a straight.
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