MP is tag, serious player
BB is unknown

check up.


I raise this about 70% of the time preflop.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Preflop: Me is UTG+2 with , .
2 folds, Me calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) , , (3 players)
BB bets, Me raises, MP3 folds, BB calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) (2 players)
BB checks, Me bets, BB calls.

River: (5.75 BB) (2 players)
BB checks, Me checks.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

Raise or fold preflop.

The rest is good.

says who?

(I probably R/C/F with a rate of 65/25/10 from EP.)

I had colected a few blinds recently and was not looknig to get 3-bet here by some sheriff.
Anyway, quit thse absolutes, please!

You're so ****ing difficult lately.

You think it's bad to be 3-bet by a sheriff?

What's the difference? He 3-bets you with a worse hand? That's a good thing, no?

Raise or fold preflop. That's not an absolute, you have no options.

What does limping achieve?

invites A7 to call me down
no, but seriously, doesn't Sklansky say its ok with AT?

Playing by books is sooooooo 3 years ago. lol

Seriously. The games have changed immeasuably since any Sklansky book.

I raise AT here because it makes it infinitely easier to play postflop, and ATo is definitely not a hand I want to play in a multiway pot.

You sure its' easier to play post flop in a raised pot, often OOP?

Yes, although it depends on table dynamics, certainly.

I fold preflop every time. Raising is better than limping though. I play postflop the same.

Then what hands are you playing and not rasing from EP, first in?

(remember, I USUALLY raise here, just don't like absolutes especially among vets)

seriously, lets get this back to the flop and river.

the flop especially is far more important than the preflop

in 100 yrs if they dig up this post, I'd hate the debate about AT preflop to be what mattered

Depends on table dynamics. If the table likes to limp a lot, I'll like lots like QJs, JTs, KJs, etc, J9s, T9s even, hands that play multiway. If raises are getting lots of folds, and I can assume I'll be 3 handed or so, I'll raise with ATo. I fold it a lot up front though, especially at loose tables.

I don't understand your whole trip about not talking in absolutes. It's clear to me that raising is better than limping. And in every normal situation, it holds. It goes without saying that you could come up with some random one off situation where limping could be better, but that's not the point of these boards.

I think when it comes to offsuit non-pairs it is best to just raise or fold because they do play like **** multiway. They make good one pair hands that have a lot more value headsup or 3ways.

Postflop I think the only options are to play it like you did or fold the flop. Are there any others that we should be seriously considering?

Preflop is the biggest decision in this hand.

Postflop is good, as I stated before. If you think he's only betting with top pair though, you can just fold. If not, raising is standard, and best, since lots of cards can hurt us. Same reason for betting the turn. On the river, there's little value in a bet, a missed draw folds, a jack always calls, while a T usually calls, but not always, smaller pairs don't always call, etc. While we may get a call from a worse hand, it's a lot less likely than getting a call from a better hand, imo.

*************

Also, it annoys me that I keep giving you reasons for why raising/folding pf is better than limping, and I've yet to really hear any reason why you are limping here x% of the time (I guess you did provide 1). It's fine to say don't talk in absolutes, but there's no reason to give up an edge because you want to limp sometimes so it's not always a raise or a fold or whatever.

Why are you limping? What justification do you have for it. To be honest, it seems like you just post these hands to start arguments over basic plays.

no, I play it this way.
I dont play it this way just to post.

I really think about my plays and don't assume because you have played a ton of poker that we dismiss sklansky .

I disagree that pf is most important.

Moneyball, imo, newer players need more discussion on the flop, I can see arguments for all threee plays

Actually, I could see myself playing the flop differently too.

Bleh. It's a crappy flop. I'd probably be more apt to call on a dryer board. Here I like a raise to protect our hand if we're ahead, and we can get to a cheaper showdown. I fold if BB has been only betting strong hands postflop.

With respect to the Sklansky thing, I don't dismiss him, but I move beyond anything of his that I've read.

yeah, I'm the same way with Leonardo de Vinci's stuff

*disclaimer - I haven't read anything other than SSHE, a couple sections of HEFAP, and a small section of TOP.

What exactly does DS say on AT in tight aggressive online games?

fold I think

Yeah.

Is there any reason why limping would be better than raising, as a second best option? In your opinion?

Folding is my 3rd option because I like to play hands.
If I played 4 tables this would be an easier fold.

But...I would not want to say boredom is why playing is better than folding
It is always, along with 33 and 22 my most marginal winner.

I think in weak loose games it makes it easier to take the hand down post flop or get away from.

If the ubiquitous "they" ever dig up this post, I'm sure their reaction is going to be something akin to, "Why the fuck would anyone think we care about any of this shit? Now where the hell is my flying car and space-suit?"

As for the hand, I think postflop is good. And I agree with the basic analysis suggesting that we boost or drop this hand. First in I'm usually raising it here, for the obvious reasons. My hand plays better with fewer players. The table looks to be playing weakish/tightish. Limping makes it weird to play postflop. I can be folding this hand from EP alot, too. I generally avoid open-limping with weakish aces, because if we're isolated we're in a tough spot, and we may end up putting quite a few bets in with no idea where we're at. It seems like, one way or another, we're going to lose value- either from putting in bets when we're behind or missing bets when we're ahead- by open-limping here.

In regards to the "there are no absolutes in poker" thing, that's true, but when you take a non-standard line there usually has to be a good reason for it. The burden of proof here, if I may call it that, is on Actuary. There are plenty of good reasons to raise or fold here, but I'm unconvinced that limping this hand a third of the time is optimal. If it's for meta-game purposes, then say that (do you want to showdown a solid hand while limping from EP, to discourage iso-raises from weaker players, and reinforce that your raising range is relatively tight?). If it's because you think your hand is disguised, and some of the other players are ripe to be exploited, say that. But don't say, "I don't believe in absolutes. Explain your reasoning." If you're taking a table-specific or game-specific line with the hand, it's tough for anyone to say anything worthwhile, because we aren't at the table, you know?


Wang

zach thanks you

Say we Raise and are 3-bet.

Flop comes A86 and we are HU.

How have we saved money or made it easier to play?

Are we c/r - folding to a 3 bet.
Or playing in WA/WB ?

Or we get it 4 handed for 2 bets.

Aside from sometimes taknig the blinds, I'm not sure how it's easier, espically against loose passoves who will not let you know where you are post flop

Hand 1, we're playing wa/wb.

Hand 2, if we get called in 4 spots, we are assuming we have the best hand, thus it was a value raise preflop. If we hit the flop we bet, if not we can c/c or c/f depending on the board.

Does the same reasoning apply for AJ, then? Or how about 88-TT? Or are you concerned about your hand being at an equity disadvantage vs. the likely callers' ranges, and the combination of the postflop styles and relative position?

I think we raise to fold out hands that we don't want coming along and playing us in position, and because we pick up fold equity on later streets, and can make better decisions post-flop against MOST players. If we're cold-called twice by loose-ish players, our raise served the dual-purpose of eliminating some hands that might have called, and getting some money in with what rates to have the best of it, most of the time. Plus, the pot is usually ours if everybody whiffs, even if they whiff with AJ or 55.

Also, I think Actuary is kinda drunk right now...


Wang


PS- Don't get snippy with me just because I agree with Zach to a degree. You've seen some of the lines I advocate, and I play some of my hands VERY situationally, and oftentimes VERY unstandardly. I've always thought that accepting a common line is silly JUST BECAUSE IT IS THE MOST COMMON LINE, but it's just as silly to disregard a oft-advocated line when it's best. I'm willing to hear arguments why this is a limp, here, but I haven't heard a persuasive one, yet.

I'm older than you.

AT off has always been a tougher hand for me and one I've played all 3 ways preflop.

I have the most succes when raising but want help clarifying why.
When I've raised several hands, as I had here, I tend to *think* I'm getting played back at more and have less fold equity. therefore a smaller pot, OOP is easier to take down and play post flop - at least in my head

I'm not drunk.

It's more than likely a combination of building value with a solid hand, and your improved post-flop fold-equity.

People are generally retarded. Instead of adjusting to high-levels of aggression by widening their 3-betting ranges to isolate and abuse the aggressive player post flop, or instead of raising mercilessly post-flop to steal pots away, bad players "lie in the weeds," waiting to snap you off when they flop huge, by which time your raising (appropriate when compared to hand strength or not) has knocked enough chips loose for their plan to have backfired.

Also, raising preflop builds pots and starts the rake, which in turn signals the software to let you run good.

Wang

I knew there was a reason i loved Icema Wang
You obviously have thought a lot about the game.
good stuff
It's the kind of thougt proccess that keeps me geeked about Limit

I've been playing alot more lately, but my thought processes are a little different than before, because I'm playing in marginally bigger live-games, with the typical weirdly-bad (overly passive) live players among whom I have a significant level of relative respect, and over whom I have not-insignificant control. My game plays really weird now. I find myself correctly raising with A4s in an eight-handed game from the hijack after 3 limpers, and folding KQo UTG +2. I abuse the bad players when I'm in position, and avoid marginal spots up front so the thinking players believe I'm tight, allowing me to isolate bad players more effectively- without fear of getting called light by ranges that have me in trouble, or ceaselessly being 3-bet- when they enter the pot in front of me.

Those weird games- and the amount of Omaha 8 I've been playing- has forced me to think about the game slightly differently, but in a good way. I still think you'd just LOVE Omaha 8, actuary.

Wang

I already avoid everything I should be doing, like studying for Exams, so taking on another game would just add to that.

I kinda coast but my wife still thinks I'm great.

you should check this turn.

Why?

Are these not reasons why a fold is better than a limp, drunk or sobor?

small pot, bad position, and greater chance of getting pressure from other medium hands?

could be.
I prefer playing
But just saying smaller pots are easier to play OOP
Now, the game style/texture will help determine which play, raise or limp actually brings about a smaller pot

I make no sense.

sorry.. I got all the info I need for this hand and am adding nothing of value.,

carry on

lol, just so we're clear...

just that you prefer playing, does not make it the right play... right?

I think I can make limping better than folding

you know sklansky says (i dont have the book in front of me so i dont know exactly where) that preflop is the most important street in holdem.

"In Small Stakes Hold'em, the real money is won and lost after the flop"

pg 96 SSHE

and while on SSHE, AJ is a limp in tight games and AT a limp in loose games from EP

get off preflop

I was just about to say, "Huh. That doesn't make any sense at all. I'd be willing to wager he doesn't feel that way at all."


Then I was going to say, "Let's get off preflop. I just got off... yours. Goddammit, I messed that up."


Wang