Ok, so, I almost wasn't going to post this hand because, well, I don't want to start one of those "can I fold KK preflop" type of threads which this will invariably turn into. BBFIDTS and all that stuff, I know. This is more for entertainment value for you than it is for strategy.

I have been sitting at the table for at least 5 hours at this point and both villains have been there the whole time with me.
Villain 1 is possibly the worst poker player that I have ever seen. He hardly came into any pots and whenever he decided to bet a flop, he'd bet $20, regardless of whether the pot was $150 or $30. He couldn't protect a good hand and couldn't get paid on one either with this strategy. The largest bet I saw him make prior to this hand (in 5 hours of play mind you) was $50.

Villain 2 has been playing fairly tight too. He's been bemoaning his bad luck and hasn't put many chips into the pots either, but he's had a big hand when he does.

Ok, let's set up the action.

Villain 1: $1400
Villain 2: $1100
Acid: $4400

I am the 2nd limper into the pot with 6 4 , Villain 2 limps on the button and the blinds complete.

Flop $50 (5 Players)

6 6 3

The blinds and limper check, I bet $30, I get instantly called by Villain 2 on the button and Villain 1 in the SB.

Turn $140 (3 Players)

6 6 3 (4 )

Oddly, Villain 1 leads at the pot, albeit for only $30. I raise to $130 and Villain 2 instacalls without any thought. Villain 1 calls.

River $530 (3 players)

6 6 3 4 (3 )

Villain 1 leads at the pot for $130. I contemplate the action. Villain 1 must have 6x and now has 6s full so he's confidently betting. Since he's not folding and Villain 2 can't call, I gotta get value from Villain 1. I raise to $580 total. I am instantly called by Villain 2. Of course, you all know what comes next. Villain 1 pushes all in for about $600 more. I am immediately sick about the whole situation. Villain 1's hand is basically faceup, as is Villain 2's hand. If there was ever a spot to muck the top full boat, this would've been it. I obviously called. I feel that villain 2 (although he's not as good as I am) makes a HUGE error in throwing in his last ~$400 here since it had no chance to win even though he was holding the naked 6.

I am posting this becuase I gotta ask, if there's only one hand that the guy can have, no matter how strong your hand is, can you ever fold here? I feel this is only made possible becuase this is against a kid who has not put in more than $120 in any hand for 5 hours and he puts in over $1200 here on the river alone. I would never consider it under other circumstances, but I feel that the situation is so rare that you can actually consider folding here. How sick would that be?

Man, I feel like these are the hands that seperate good players from great ones. You're literally never ahead here. If you are, an idiot has stumbled onto your table. I definitely think you can fold this because I know you know what he had here. I would know it and convince myself they both somehow had a 6 or something.

I'm actually a little sick thinking about this.

yeah i almost never fold here, need some serious physical tell or read on the guy which it looks like you might have had.

Nothing physical except for the fact that he hadn't put any chips into the pot all day. Add that to the fact that Villain 2 had to know one of us had a 6 and was still calling makes the whole situation very troubling.

If I had the naked 6 in my spot, I'd have instamucked it. I also wouldn't have gotten into that situaiton becuase I wouldn't have raised his river bet since I'd be counting on the overcall from villain 2.

Well realistically, the villain 2 helps your decision making simply because you knew he had the case 6. If he has the case 6 and you obv have the second nuts with 64, then the only hand that villain 1 (the rock) can have is 33 for quads. He wouldn't have insta called your flop bet with 44 for obvious reasons so if you really believe that the only hand he could have here would be the nuts, which definitively u think he has, then you have to fold. If there is any doubt in your mind that he would have gotten crazy with AA or something to that effect than u have to call.

Thats the way I would have thought the hand out.

That's pretty sick. You called, he flipped over the 33's, and you threw up on the table, right?

How is a naked 6 any different when you compare it to your actual hand? Disregarding that you wouldn't have raised his river bet.

We beat a naked 6.

64 on a 66433 board...

If that's what you're asking.

Or, to answer it better, more beats us with a naked 6, and it's tough for players to be representing anything other than 64 or 33 here.

Well, given the action its already clear that the villain leading the river most likely has 33 or a 6 that he wants value for. By leading he wants make sure it doesnt get checked behind.

Once the second villain overcalls thoug, its quite clear that he must have the 6.. Therefore, its has to be 33 for villain 1 because all 6s are accounted for. A naked 6 beats just as much against this villain (given his decription) as 64...probably nothing.

64 is any 6 here imo.

Fold the 64 face up. When the other players see all the hands, their brains will explode and you can quietly collect all the chips and walk out.

A naked 6 beats nothing since the best it can do is tie with any other 6. I lose to quads, period. You make a hand that big, you're getting 5-1 on your money, which you know doesn't matter anyway since he's got quads or he doesn't, and you just get stuck there. I guess I got blinded by the fact that Villain 2 hadn't made a single aggressive bet the whole pot and I was praying that he didn't have the only hand that it made sense for him to have.

The truth is, on the river, I probably dind't take enough time to consider my situation. If I had, I probably could have found it in myself to fold the hand. Maybe that's optimistic, but I don't know. The pot was already so big and I had the top boat and I was kind of in a daze and I felt like DN's blog where he comically describes a video game where he can see his opponents hole cards, knows when he's beaten, and calls anyway. This was kind of one of those situations except that my hand was just so big.

I mean, really though, this damn kid who won the pot couldn't win that amount of money unless this exact uber-cooler type of hand came up. He won the hand and then immediately left the table.

Oh, hey, this reminded me...where and when do you play so I can come donk off a buy in while I'm out there? I'm bringing ~20k to play with and I've slotted 1k as, "probably going to lose it to AK but will try my best to bad beat him and then get a picture of us each holding our hole cards with a messy pile of chips in front of me while he contemplates punching me" money.

If you can schedule this between the 20-25th of June I'll take the picture.

There's a new term for that. It's called Angelo-ing me. On Friday, I was playing with a regular guy my age, Angelo, who plays for a living. We are very familiiar with each other. The preflop action went Me-60, he made it 190, I made it $690, he thought forever and went all in (basically knowing I never have less than KK here) with JJ, I instacalled with AA. FLop AKQ, turn 5, river T. Stupidest play I've ever seen and he knows it too. That's how you get my money. Get it in with 18% and get there!

Just PM me with info about when you're coming out and your cell and stuff and we'll work something out. I can get down to play any day after 4 and I'm gonna be playing all day on the weekends, probably at Bellagio, but I can come down the the Rio or the Wynn or wherever.

Awesome. I might just ship you 1k via PayPal and save us both time.

Oh, and there's a little more fun that accompanies the hand in the OP.

So, after losing and they finally get all of those chips shipped across the table, we obviously get dealt another hand. On the very next hand I get 66 and I limp into the pot in LP. There are 6 of us and the flop is T 6 3 and my buddy Dave leads at it for $40 from UTG. I am fairly sure that he has an overpair here, but he's good enough not to pay me, which kind of sucks. Kind of making it look like I'm on tilt (which I wasn't) and kind of making it look like I didn't want action, I just grabbed $120 in chips and sloppily threw them into the pot. The SB thought for a minute and then coldcalled. Now I was interested in the pot. Dave called as well. The turn was the 3 and I made a full house and contemplated if it was humanly possible to lose with 6s full to quad 3s in back to back hands. They both check and I try and decide what I need to do. I finally decide on a weird looking bet of $250, which is somewhere between a real bet and a "I feel like I am supposed to bet but don't wanna commit chips" bet. The SB check-raises to $500, leaving himself $900 behind or so. Dave folds and I take a few minutes and tiltishly declare "all in" which he takes a minute or two and then calls. The river is the 2 and I scoop the pot. The net gain from the 2 hands is a couple of hundred in the black, so I guess things worked out alright, but it was still a sick hand.

Ah, I assumed your lost buy in was from that hand. Just not a good night?

While we're on the subject of back-to-back hands and there's no other place to put this, I cracked a guy who had AA on consecutive hands when I had 7c-6c both times on flops of 5-8-9. First hand, he dropped 600 to me when we got it all in on the turn. Next hand, he dropped 500 when we got it all in on the flop.

My day was really rangy. I started off losing a couple hundred at a time until I was down $700. Then I hit some hands and made some good plays. There was a terrible guy at the table who gave me a lot of money. I was up $2600 at one point. Usually when I'm up that much and I start to lose a little, I take off. In a 1 hour span following those 2 hands, I lost $600 on a failed 3 barrel (I had him on the right hand, he just didn't fold it), another grand on a turned flush over flush and before I knew it, I'd lost $3000 in an hour and I was back to where I started. Then I stuck around for 3 more hours getting clipped each time I entered a pot before finally giving up. -$700 to +$2600 to -$1000. I hate days like that.

you know you have to just take this beat, right?

The fact that this kid hadn't made a bet larger than $50 in 5 hours means that there was the possibility that I could have folded. I didn't obviously, but in this situation, I really feel that I could have.

Any other time, I'm calling instantly. But really, he doesn't bet more than $50 and he just bet $1200? You gotta be worried.

I would have said quad 6's to be a prick, tell him he better stay at $50 unless its the mortal nuts.

You should learn from the 3333 kid and take the money and run.

Yeah, if I was terrified of losing $40, I probably would've done that. The table was soft and I was in the mood to play. I just got a little unlucky I guess. I don't regret not leaving becuase I'd never leave a game with those players in it.

Only donkeys can't fold the 2nd nuts.

Since this thread has run its course...

If you could magically be given the power to win the next (fill in number) of hands you win at showdown, how many would you need to win the WSOP main event (assuming a field of around 8k).

Basically, if you get it all in and I call, you win no matter what. That counts as one hand. If you bet a hand down and no one calls, that doesn't. You get a total number of guaranteed wins at showdown during the main event, they don't have to happen consecutively.

EDIT: This is important. I have money riding on the responses.

You should go to the poker game tonight.

Doesn't this totally depend on other action as well?

Not really.

I mean, it does in the sense that the person with these powers has to not be an idiot, i.e. calling an all in from a small stack and wasting one auto-win. I would imagine a smart player would know when to use it, right? I don't want to influence it too much since we're betting on this.

No ... I mean if the rest of the field is narrowing itself by other players eliminating other players, or if you are the only player eliminating other players.

Maybe I'm not making sense.

Everything else would go as per normal. You just secretly (except to yourself) have the ability to win the next x amount of hands at showdown. Not consecutive hands, i.e. "Did you see MT? He won 30 straight hands!" But, like, you play a hand in round 1 to an all in and double up and then the next showdown is two hours later or whatever.

I think that players play for like 6 or 7 days total if there are that many people. They play 10 hours a day I think. I figure that to win the ME, I'd have to win a showdown every 90 minutes or something like that to ensure my status, so, let's say it's 70 hours of total play so 70 hours * 60 Mins per hr / 90 mins is 47 hands give or take. I was gonna guestimate 50 hands. The at the final table where things get shorter, you'd need to pull out a few more wins especially since you're playing like 2x or 3x as many hands as the tables get short handed. If you could ensure that I'd be guarnteed to win 75 hands, I could probably take down the ME.

Or I'd just need to be this good

Hmm, English major at work here, but I'd guess that you would total the chips and do the maths, figuring how many times it would take to double, double, double and get there.

I'm not doing that, BTW, I just think that's how you'd do it.

Truth be told, I'd just wait until there was like a 3 way all in that I knew the 3 hands were AA, AA and KK and I'd just hop in there (having everyone covered of course) with a little 62o and take the pot down.

Keep in mind that you can go try and steal as often as you want because if they fold, it doesn't count as one of your hands and if they call, you're guaranteed to win.

Some day, someone's going to look at this joke of a thread and say, "Man, who started that crappy thread?" All part of my evil plan to ruin Acid's credibility.

Best of luck with that sir.

OK, so if these are the rules, then look up the number of Jamie Gold's hands, because I don't think he lost a showdown, did he?

No thought whatsoever, but I'll say about 20 Naismith. Hope you won the bet, if so ship me half.

:]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

Bump!

Oh, and sadly I never did get my $1000 from Naismith. He almost got some of my money though, but not quite.

So, so, sooooo very close.

Regarding the hand in question...

You shouldn't try to bluff a call station!

The minimum number of hands is 13 based on the following assumptions:

1. The other person has more chips than you each time.
2. You can get all your chips in each time.

They don't have to be consecutive hands (in fact they can't be because you need time for your opponents to accumulate chips to double you up).

2^x * 20000 = 20000 * 8000
which reduces to
2^x = 8000
or x = a little under 13.

By this logic, then just 1 hand because the last hand needs to go to a show down and you could have stolen the rest of the pots =)