23 replies to this topic

[rdtedm]

Down to six handed, one of the last hands of the night.

Hero is UTG ($390)
Villain is MP ($460)

Reads on villain:
Plays loose preflop, usually passive post-flop. Earlier in the night he called a $60 all-in with J-3 suited preflop. When he raises it is always the same amount preflop, and if anyone bets into him he usually folds after the flop. Haven't seem him make any bold moves, but he does make calls at the river with ace high/weak pair if he thinks something is fishy. One hand I called him down, and we both chopped a pot with Ace-10 high. What I'm trying to get at, is he bets when no one else shows interest by the turn. On the flop, he usually checks even if he threw in a preflop raise.

SB, BB post
Hero is UTG with [Qc 10c]
Hero calls $2
MP calls $2
MP+1 calls $2
Folds to BB
BB checks

4-way Flop ($9)
Qd 10d 6h
BB checks
Hero bets $7
Villain raises to $20
MP+1 folds
BB folds
Hero re-raises to $45
Villain smooth-calls.

2-way Turn ($99)
Qd 10d 6h [2s]

Hero bets $80
Villain calls $80

2-way River ($259)
Qd 10d 6h 2s [4d]

Hero checks
Villain bets $200
Hero ??

I fold here if he doesn't raise my flop bet. I didn't put him on a diamond draw for this reason, thought maybe he was getting tricky preflop with KK or AA and no one obliged. Previous hands when he had flush draws he was just a calling station, never very aggressive. No idea where I was at here.

Action?

[offmandh]

you probably should have bet on the river. checking opens the door for a bluff and you have no info. like he easily could be bluffing but he easily could have a flush you just dont know. if you bet the river and he raises, theres a lot less of a chance hes bluffing so you get an opportunity to find out more info and name your price. i like a bet of 120-150

[rdtedm]

you probably should have bet on the river. checking opens the door for a bluff and you have no info. like he easily could be bluffing but he easily could have a flush you just dont know. if you bet the river and he raises, theres a lot less of a chance hes bluffing so you get an opportunity to find out more info and name your price. i like a bet of 120-150

The reason I didn't bet here, is that any bet (like $120) warrants a raise from virtually any hand that an aggressive opponent like villain here has. My river decision was to bet like 3/4 pot and commit myself for the rest of my chips, or to check and hope opponent follows suit. Being OOP here sucks.

[offmandh]

so if hes aggresive enough to raise all in on a bluff if you bet into him hes certainly aggresive enough to make a pot-size bet on the river when you check to him. hes definately bluffing at least a third of the time and the pots offering you 2 to 1

[simo_8ball]

I doesn't likes your open limp UTG w/QT s00ted. Raise or fold.

Reraise the flop to $55, not $45. You gave very nice drawing odds of nearly 3/1.

Turn bet is good.

Bet/fold line of about $110 I think is good on the river if your read is fairly accurate. Normally this would be check/fold though.

[rdtedm]

Meh, I don't like raising UTG w/ Q-10 suited. Marginal hand that I'd rather see a flop with before I pour my money in.

[simo_8ball]

Meh, I don't like raising UTG w/ Q-10 suited. Marginal hand

Why play it at all? Is it coz it is s00ted?

You are out of position for the whole hand, and you can't like any flop that doesn't give you at least 2 pair or a monster draw. It is far too easy to lose a mid sized pot with one pair on the flop.



"The reason I didn't bet here, is that any bet (like $120) warrants a raise from virtually any hand that an aggressive opponent like villain here has. My river decision was to bet like 3/4 pot and commit myself for the rest of my chips, or to check and hope opponent follows suit. Being OOP here sucks."

What hands does he raise with that you beat? AA? KK? AQ? Is he genuinely bad enough to value bluff a hand like that?

EDIT: AA/KK are unlikely. Or impossible. I think you are probably looking at a flush or AQ/KQ when you get to this river. You said you didn't think he had a flush draw though.

[rdtedm]

Why play it at all? Is it coz it is s00ted?

You are out of position for the whole hand, and you can't like any flop that doesn't give you at least 2 pair or a monster draw. It is far too easy to lose a mid sized pot with one pair on the flop.
"The reason I didn't bet here, is that any bet (like $120) warrants a raise from virtually any hand that an aggressive opponent like villain here has. My river decision was to bet like 3/4 pot and commit myself for the rest of my chips, or to check and hope opponent follows suit. Being OOP here sucks."

What hands does he raise with that you beat? AA? KK? AQ? Is he genuinely bad enough to value bluff a hand like that?

EDIT: AA/KK are unlikely. Or impossible. I think you are probably looking at a flush or AQ/KQ when you get to this river. You said you didn't think he had a flush draw though.

Like I said, one of two decisions. If I bet 3/4 pot - pot, and he comes over the top, I'm pretty sure I'm beat but have to call because I commit myself. If I check, he can either check or make a bet, and depending on the size of the latter, I can fold, call, or C/R. I opted for checking.

And I'm not really sure why I'm getting a critique for limping with Q-10. Last time I checked it wasn't in the list of hands to raise with from UTG.

[simo_8ball]

Like I said, one of two decisions. If I bet 3/4 pot - pot, and he comes over the top, I'm pretty sure I'm beat but have to call because I commit myself. If I check, he can either check or make a bet, and depending on the size of the latter, I can fold, call, or C/R. I opted for checking.

There aren't many players that are bad enough to call 3/4 pot on this river with hands you beat IMO. If you're betting, 3/4 pot is bad and turns your hand into almost a total bluff.

Again, if you bet $110, what hands can he have that he will raise you with?

EDIT: QT is a poor hand preflop. Would you have played it if it was offsuit?

[mtdesmoines]

Down to six handed, one of the last hands of the night.

Hero is UTG ($390)
Villain is MP ($460)

Reads on villain:
Plays loose preflop, usually passive post-flop. Earlier in the night he called a $60 all-in with J-3 suited preflop. When he raises it is always the same amount preflop, and if anyone bets into him he usually folds after the flop. Haven't seem him make any bold moves, but he does make calls at the river with ace high/weak pair if he thinks something is fishy. One hand I called him down, and we both chopped a pot with Ace-10 high. What I'm trying to get at, is he bets when no one else shows interest by the turn. On the flop, he usually checks even if he threw in a preflop raise.

SB, BB post
Hero is UTG with [Qc 10c]
Hero calls $2
MP calls $2
MP+1 calls $2
Folds to BB
BB checks

4-way Flop ($9)
Qd 10d 6h
BB checks
Hero bets $7
Villain raises to $20
MP+1 folds
BB folds
Hero re-raises to $45
Villain smooth-calls.

2-way Turn ($99)
Qd 10d 6h [2s]

Hero bets $80
Villain calls $80

2-way River ($259)
Qd 10d 6h 2s [4d]

Hero checks
Villain bets $200
Hero ??

I fold here if he doesn't raise my flop bet. I didn't put him on a diamond draw for this reason, thought maybe he was getting tricky preflop with KK or AA and no one obliged. Previous hands when he had flush draws he was just a calling station, never very aggressive. No idea where I was at here.

Action?

The turn is the place where you lost control of this hand. I don't mind the light bet on the flop when you hit it hard, but with coordinating possibilities everywhere, you need to make the cash registers ring on the turn.

[fckthis]

3 bet more on the flop. 60-80. If he calls, then you can shove on the turn.

[rdtedm]

There aren't many players that are bad enough to call 3/4 pot on this river with hands you beat IMO. If you're betting, 3/4 pot is bad and turns your hand into almost a total bluff.

Again, if you bet $110, what hands can he have that he will raise you with?

EDIT: QT is a poor hand preflop. Would you have played it if it was offsuit?

I didn't say he had to have a hand to beat me here. I know if I'm in position here and someone makes less than a half-sized pot bet, I'm coming over the top if we're deep stacked and have shown interest thus far. What I'm saying is the weak bet of $110 (against a decent opponent) is either a bet that wants to induce a raise, or a bet that is going to get raised given the cicumstances.
In my case, would I want to be raised here? No. I wanted to leave the option to fold when a bad card hits, or the option to call or C/R a small bet by villain. The reason I posted this hand is because instead of being in a Call or C/R position, I'm in a call/fold position.

And I limp with suited connected and suited one gappers when I'm out of position. Either I hit the flop hard or fold, and in this case I hit the flop. Yes, I usually fold Q-10 offsuit UTG.

My main point is that $110 or so looks too much like a blocker bet, and will probably get raised.

[simo_8ball]

I didn't say he had to have a hand to beat me here. I know if I'm in position here and someone makes less than a half-sized pot bet, I'm coming over the top if we're deep stacked and have shown interest thus far. What I'm saying is the weak bet of $110 (against a decent opponent) is either a bet that wants to induce a raise, or a bet that is going to get raised given the cicumstances.

Ok I'm pretty sure you're missing my point. Go through his range, and look at what the best move to make is for each hand. Then look at how likely each hand (or type of hand) is.

He has: Flush; Best move: Check/fold
He has: AQ/KQ/AA/KK; Best move: Lead small, hope for a crying call or even a raise.
He has: KJ or some other busted draw (aka nothing); Best move: either check/raise or lead weak to induce a bluff

You said
"I didn't put him on a diamond draw for this reason, thought maybe he was getting tricky preflop with KK or AA and no one obliged."

If you don't think a flush is that likely then he probably has one pair, or two pair, or something else you beat. He may have 66, but wouldn't he raise the turn, and wouldn't he bet less on the river?

So, if his most likely hand is AA/KK/AQ/etc then rather than let him check behind on the river you should value bet small and hope for the crying call.

And I limp with suited connected and suited one gappers when I'm out of position. Either I hit the flop hard or fold, and in this case I hit the flop. Yes, I usually fold Q-10 offsuit UTG.

I can't see that opting for a limp/fold line UTG with QTs preflop is unlikely to be long run profitable. If your line is limp/call I think it is even less profitable. Maybe it's just me.

[simo_8ball]

My main point is that $110 or so looks too much like a blocker bet, and will probably get raised.

But my point is raised by WHAT? If he has AQ/AA/KK would he raise? You say that as though there are a multitude of hands that beat you that would raise here. There aren't. I think you only get raised by a flush or by air. And air is highly improbable.

[rdtedm]

Heh, just to clear this up:

The river bet confused me, because although I didn't initially put him on a diamond draw, his bet on the river can be made by one of three hands (although we'll probably not consider the third too much):

- Mr. Flush
- Busted draw/nothing
- AA/KK/TPTK - a hand that should have checked.

I think we're on the same page here, just a little confusion in wording. Like I said, initially I didn't put him on a diamond draw because I didn't expect a raise with just a draw, but come the river, it was a real possibility and he just played it well and got lucky.

[rdtedm]

But my point is raised by WHAT? If he has AQ/AA/KK would he raise? You say that as though there are a multitude of hands that beat you that would raise here. There aren't. I think you only get raised by a flush or by air. And air is highly improbable.

Look at my post, I didn't say that a multitude of hands beat me that will raise this. I said it's too weak of a bet to induce a fold, and is more likely to induce a raise which I can't really call, even if villain has air. Hence, it is a blocker bet with a small chance of success. I said that a $110 bet is probably going to get raised even if villain has air, but at which point I still can't call unless I'm sure i have him beat.

[simo_8ball]

- Mr. Flush
- Busted draw/nothing
- AA/KK/TPTK - a hand that should have checked.

Ah, ok. Easy check/fold then. Easy easy easy. I can't see the second option being likely at all. I can't see the merit in him betting AA/KK/AQ there so that is very unlikely as well.

[rdtedm]

Ah, ok. Easy check/fold then. Easy easy easy. I can't see the second option being likely at all. I can't see the merit in him betting AA/KK/AQ there so that is very unlikely as well.

Usually I fold this, but his line was inconsistent with the flush. This is what made the hand more than a "standard check/fold" on the river. He usually played draws passively, but he was the aggressor at the flop. The only conceivable hand that beats me here is the flush, but as stated, his line is not consistent with it. A set comes over the top on the turn when I bet almost pot, since there are potential draws. I can see AA/KK raise the flop and then C/C the turn, but i don't see it betting $200 when checked to on the river. No hand really makes sense here, unless I'm missing something.

My point is that it was either a disguised flush, or a last attempt by a hand like AA/KK/KJ to steal the pot when they know they're probably beat.

[simo_8ball]

Look at my post, I didn't say that a multitude of hands beat me that will raise this. I said it's too weak of a bet to induce a fold, and is more likely to induce a raise which I can't really call, even if villain has air. Hence, it is a blocker bet with a small chance of success. I said that a $110 bet is probably going to get raised even if villain has air, but at which point I still can't call unless I'm sure i have him beat.

Ignore the possibility of air. I can't see him having air here at all, unless he has significantly overplayed KJ on the turn. You are left with 2 kinds of hands:

1) AA/KK/TPTK
2) Mr. Flush

The whole point is that if you think he has 1) you clearly should make the $100 bet, because as you say, "it's too weak of a bet to induce a fold", but he likely won't raise it either.

[rdtedm]

Ignore the possibility of air. I can't see him having air here at all, unless he has significantly overplayed KJ on the turn. You are left with 2 kinds of hands:

1) AA/KK/TPTK
2) Mr. Flush

The whole point is that if you think he has 1) you clearly should make the $100 bet, because as you say, "it's too weak of a bet to induce a fold", but he likely won't raise it either.

My whole point has been that a weak looking bet is GOING to get raised no matter what, and I would likely only make this bet if I myself had a flush. Even if villain has AA/KK and knows he is beat, his only chance is to raise my weak bet and hope I fold. If he has a flush, it gets raised. This is why I opted for a check.