4 replies to this topic

[rainbowtrout]

lets say you have a big pocket pair like QQ's. and lets say two poeple are going crazy preflop raising and reraising each other. you think y0u have the best hand (positive) but with 2 people all in is it worth giving up all your chips? how about in a tournament scenario. My estimate is that the odds of winning will usually be aorund 65% or worse for all your stack. wouldnt it be like 'reverse implied odds' and be a unnessisary risk? One bad move in a cash game when 2 chip leaders clash has been extremely costly for me. I seem to get chips slowly and when i finally hit a big pot as even a 4.5:1 underdog i lose all my chips for nothing. If youre a massive chip leader the decsion would be easy.sorry i'm trying to learn and want to understand how to play these big pocket pairs without losing all my chips to outdraws late in games. i know its simple stuff.

[Wily]

This all depends on what the pay out structure of the tournament (I assume it's a tournament situation) is. If it's a satellite tournament of some sort, where the pay out for a certain number of seats is the same, then it's an easy fold if you think you can sit out and still get into the money.If it's a cash tournament, I'd have to consider a lot of factors. Are you in the money or not? How big is your stack compared to the two? How have the other two been playing (tight, loose, aggressive, conservative)? With a bigger stack, it's an easy all-in, of course. With a smaller stack and QQ, I'd say it's a moderately easy all-in for most situations - if you read one on a big ace (AK) and the other on a lower pair (JJ). You need the chips to advance in a tournament, and the risk/reward is usually on your side to gain more chips (i.e. third place is often like 10% of the purse, while 10th is around 1%).I play multi tournaments frequently, and I WOULDN'T all in preflop with QQ or AK (they play somewhat the same way late in a tournament) in a three way with the following cases:1) I'm in top 5 in chips, and one of the two all-ins is the chip leader. This is not because I don't want chips, but because I feel that I can wait for a better spot to commit, and I have enough chips to handle blinds for now. A better move would be to wait and advance in position after this hand.2) One of my opponents is a complete rock (like me), and I've only seen him play very few, premium hands. This requires a good deal of observation on him, though. I don't want a KK or AA to be one of the allins.3) If the game is right after the bubble, when everyone is going nuts in the money to build up a chip stack before the final table. This is because it's fairly easy to gain chips at this time in the tournament, and you can wait for a better spot to push.4) Very early in a tournament. No need to, for the same reason as #3. Note that these are NOT true for KK or AA. Push with those, always, in tournaments (and in almost all cash games). Hope this helps, and I'll add to this list when I think of more.

rainbowtrout said:

lets say you have a big pocket pair like QQ's. and lets say two poeple are going crazy preflop raising and reraising each other. you think y0u have the best hand (positive) but with 2 people all in is it worth giving up all your chips? how about in a tournament scenario. My estimate is that the odds of winning will usually be aorund 65% or worse for all your stack. wouldnt it be like 'reverse implied odds' and be a unnessisary risk? One bad move in a cash game when 2 chip leaders clash has been extremely costly for me. I seem to get chips slowly and when i finally hit a big pot as even a 4.5:1 underdog i lose all my chips for nothing. If youre a massive chip leader the decsion would be easy.sorry i'm trying to learn and want to understand how to play these big pocket pairs without losing all my chips to outdraws late in games. i know its simple stuff.

[rainbowtrout]

hmm.. ok thank you that helps a lot. I know QQ's is certainly not a hand you would even think about in this situation if you knew at least one of the players was a rock. In a cash game though, my point is that if you take enough 4.5:1 preflop all in situations youre going to lose all of your chips in one hand...(This situation can present itself quite often in wild games) Is it worth it against 2 people before the flop when youre way ahead in a cash game and know you have the best hand? Even if you had aces.. same idea.another question.. How hard do you push big pocket pairs eary in tournaments exactly?thanks

[DCWildcat]

Not a simple question, a good one!As for pushing big PPs early in tourneys, it depends on your tournament strategy and your read on other players. If you are looking to build up and don't mind busting out early, push them hard. If you're all about survival on the first day, push them medium hard. Push them either way--they're big PPs! Remember that early (and I assume you mean the first 3 or so levels), dead money abounds. You may get called with some ridiculous hands for easy cash. If it's towards the end of the round and you're in medium stack territory, I'd push as hard as I could if it was QQ or higher. Doubling up right before heading in to the middle death rounds is one of the joys of tournament life 8)

[TJ_Eckleburg]

Under most circumstances, just push 'em in and close your eyes. With AA or KK I wouldn't even think twice (because I'm definitely not good enough to lay down KK preflop, and I don't think anyone else is online).With QQ or JJ there's a little more gray area. It depends on your read (the opponents in the hand), the situation (chip stacks, payouts, people left, et cetera), and other things. Since at most final tables you can't play a pot unless it's for all your chips, the move is probably either all in or fold. The only conceivable situation where a call might be in order is if you and one other opponent are massive chipleaders and the amount involved is negligible (5-10% or less of your stack), and the other opponents are way behind.