66

[Actuary 3]

table is tight.. Not one I'd think was good to limp 66 hereI'm one tabling and just putting off work.So that's my excuse for being in the is pot in the first place.I like the way it was played though.. you?PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , . 1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 raises, MP2 3-bets, 5 folds, Hero calls, MP1 caps, MP2 calls, Hero calls.Flop: (13.50 SB) , , (3 players)Hero bets, MP1 raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls, MP1 caps, MP2 calls, Hero calls.Turn: (11.75 BB) (3 players)Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.River: (17.75 BB) (3 players)Hero bets..and calling. (hope it's not 3-bet behind me)MP1 is TAGMP2 in unknown

[Zach6668 513]

Personally, I would probably cap the flop and lead the turn, but I really like your line.

[mikeysong 0]

not a fanI like playing it straight forward. Just look at pf action! Ppl here have big hands! Big hands = monies! If you lead turn, overpair may raise allowing you to 3bbet, and no one's folding an overpair in this big pot.

[antistuff 0]

this is an excellent example of how to bludgeon your opponents over their heads using your relative position. you might make more capping the flop and leading the turn hoping to get raised again, but im not sure.

[TheCinciKid 0]

Hero folds pre-flop. Either before the limp, or after the 3-bet. Good Luck.

[Actuary 3]

Hero folds pre-flop. Either before the limp, or after the 3-bet. Good Luck.

I'l agree I should (well not me, but most players ) fold preflop at this tableBut after the 3-bet... say it gets capped 50% of the time...So I need to call 2.5 more bets.There are 3.5x2+1+1,5 = 9.5 SB in there.Say I need 10x 2.5 to play profitably.that's 25 - 9.5 = 15.5 SB I need to make up on the flop, turn, and river.When they have over pairs that is reasonable (in this case I could have made 8+8+4 additional SB's post flop, or 29.5 total)But if I miss the flop and it goes check, Bet, Call, I'd be getting 15:1.So sometimes I put in more bets.**********************Mikey,not a lot of normal players will raise my turn bet after I donk the flop and capI would have lead the flop, if MP1 did not cap.Since he did, I felt it was a great time to trap MP2 for two bets

[antistuff 0]

Hero folds pre-flop. Either before the limp, or after the 3-bet. Good Luck.

depends on the table if the limp was ok or not. you should definitely not fold to the three bet.

[mikeysong 0]

by capping flop and leading turn, you've got a great shot at getting 3bbs in on the turn rather than 2 when u cr'd them, as now they're scared shitless of 54.You had a awesome pf action, which should register cool! Best scenario it's AA vs KK vs 666, and a great flop to really jam your bets in. I really don't like just calling the flop and check-raising the turn. You've got loads more potential by just jamming.

[Actuary 3]

Mikey:I usually wont get raised on the turn, and if I do, MP2 will fold a decent number of handsCapping flop will lead to no turn raise.Seriously

[TheCinciKid 0]

I'l agree I should (well not me, but most players ) fold preflop at this tableBut after the 3-bet... say it gets capped 50% of the time...So I need to call 2.5 more bets.There are 3.5x2+1+1,5 = 9.5 SB in there.Say I need 10x 2.5 to play profitably.that's 25 - 9.5 = 15.5 SB I need to make up on the flop, turn, and river.When they have over pairs that is reasonable (in this case I could have made 8+8+4 additional SB's post flop, or 29.5 total)But if I miss the flop and it goes check, Bet, Call, I'd be getting 15:1.So sometimes I put in more bets.**********************Mikey,not a lot of normal players will raise my turn bet after I donk the flop and capI would have lead the flop, if MP1 did not cap.Since he did, I felt it was a great time to trap MP2 for two bets

heh, I haven't really played much in a while. Therefore, I trust your analysis much more than mine. You're probably right to call the three bet. It's cool to see you playing poker again though, glad that everything with the job and the move and all seems to have worked itself out.

[cubbybri 0]

I have just been getting back into playing some limit again. I like the cap flop and lead turn. How tight is this table? I have a question for a tight table... is it ok to raise your 66 here for deception pre-flop?

[antistuff 0]

is it ok to raise your 66 here for deception pre-flop?

eh. not really. if they are very weak tight and i have been running them over and they keep staying out of my way then maybe. not for deception though. dont bother trying to be deceptive in that way at a .50/1 table, nobody will notice.

[Actuary 3]

not for deception though. dont bother trying to be deceptive in that way at a .50/1 table, nobody will notice.

I think 20% of players would.But I would not use 66 as a hand to rasie for deception.And, that 20% that would notice woudl be the ones I'm precisely trying to throw off my trail.***************Cinci,Actually in my analysis, I was really more or less saying that if everything works out perfectly, it's a +EV call.*****************cubbybri,Why do you like cap flop, lead turn ?*************************btw, I like the flop lead *knowing* it's getting raised at least once.I would have 3-bet if it was not already.Not capping gave me a great chance to play the turn more profitably.Leading or C/R, depending on whether it was capped on the flopToo often I have a particular line in mind without regard to what occurs.So I say: "Play sets fast on coordinated boards."Or "DO a Stop n Go"In light of how the preflop and flop were playing out, I'm happy with the decisions thast were made.I'm glad to hear criticsm; but I want the reason..from a $$$$ perspective.************8I'll add: One big reason to cap the flop is in case "scary" cards come, I lose value, i.e. a 3rd heart -BUT given the preflop action, I really don't think there's a huge risk of the action slowing down

[mikeysong 0]

I think 20% of players would.But I would not use 66 as a hand to rasie for deception.And, that 20% that would notice woudl be the ones I'm precisely trying to throw off my trail.***************Cinci,Actually in my analysis, I was really more or less saying that if everything works out perfectly, it's a +EV call.*****************cubbybri,Why do you like cap flop, lead turn ?*************************btw, I like the flop lead *knowing* it's getting raised at least once.I would have 3-bet if it was not already.Not capping gave me a great chance to play the turn more profitably.Leading or C/R, depending on whether it was capped on the flopToo often I have a particular line in mind without regard to what occurs.So I say: "Play sets fast on coordinated boards."Or "DO a Stop n Go"In light of how the preflop and flop were playing out, I'm happy with the decisions thast were made.I'm glad to hear criticsm; but I want the reason..from a $$$$ perspective.************8I'll add: One big reason to cap the flop is in case "scary" cards come, I lose value, i.e. a 3rd heart -BUT given the preflop action, I really don't think there's a huge risk of the action slowing down

which is why you should just play it fast and let them get caught up in the momentum. There is a better possibility for more bets to go in on the turn this way than when you check-raise the turn into 2 ppl.

[Actuary 3]

which is why you should just play it fast and let them get caught up in the momentum. There is a better possibility for more bets to go in on the turn this way than when you check-raise the turn into 2 ppl.

I think given the flop action (and it's critical to consider the Turn in light of the precise flop aciton), that we can say a c/r almost always gets 4BB total from villains. If we are 3-bet - that's a bonus.you'll just have to trust me.Against most Stars .5/1 decent players, you are making more to c.r here.What you bolded is being taken out of context.The action will not slow down so much that I risk gettig a check all the way around.It's significanly different to expect a Raise after I lead again, even after the flop was capped, than to simply say we don't fear a check thru. When we lead, if it's Raised, given the prior action, I think the best case / most likely "good" scenario is Bet, Raise, Fold, I 3bet and he calls. And calls 1 more on the River. We win 4 BB instead of 6.The Capper is in the wrong spot, imo, to make leading better. 3 scenarios:I Bet, Raise, fold, I 3bet, Call.Bet, CallWe make 4 BBI bet, Raise, Call, I 3bet, Call, Call,Bet, Call, CallWe make 8 BBI bet, Call, CallBet, Call, CallWe make 4 BBGiven that the 1st (8 BB) scenario does not comprise 1/2 the likehoods in real life in these games I play, and a Turn c/r makes 6 BB on Turn+River (given the same likely holdings we used in the "Lead Turn" scenarios), I'd say it roughly demonstrates that a Turn c/r makes more money, when we win the hand.Also, FWIW, it always better to make 6 BB putting in 3 BB, than putting in 4 BB, on average. *Unless by putting in more bets you can get hands drawing very live to fold, but thats not the case.* that's a theory I made up

[Actuary 3]

ONe more big thing:Every time you think MP2 will call a turn Bet, Raise .. scenario, well, he'll probably play a Check, Bet, scenario by Raising! quite a bit.Not here, but a decent portion.When he isn't Raising a Check, Bet scenario, I don't think you can say he CALLS a Bet, Raise ..scenario with any regularityI guess looking at the action only, you might be lead to think MP2 and MP1 will call/raise anything because they did prflop and flop.Once a 3rd player wakes up on that board, given the his pf action, a SET is pretty much what everyone puts me on.Had I been all aggressive preflop, then JJ+ type hands migh continue to be aggressive.But ven AA and KK don't both continue to play aggressively if I lead again, normally.my hand is now transparent

[antistuff 0]

Also, FWIW, it always better to make 6 BB putting in 3 BB, than putting in 4 BB, on average. *Unless by putting in more bets you can get hands drawing very live to fold, but thats not the case.* that's a theory I made up

now here is a completely new idea to me. care to elaborate?

[mikeysong 0]

ONe more big thing:Every time you think MP2 will call a turn Bet, Raise .. scenario, well, he'll probably play a Check, Bet, scenario by Raising! quite a bit.Not here, but a decent portion.When he isn't Raising a Check, Bet scenario, I don't think you can say he CALLS a Bet, Raise ..scenario with any regularityI guess looking at the action only, you might be lead to think MP2 and MP1 will call/raise anything because they did prflop and flop.Once a 3rd player wakes up on that board, given the his pf action, a SET is pretty much what everyone puts me on.Had I been all aggressive preflop, then JJ+ type hands migh continue to be aggressive.But ven AA and KK don't both continue to play aggressively if I lead again, normally.my hand is now transparent

either i'm not giving .5/1 players enough credit or you're giving them too much.I'm not worried about it being checked through on the turn, if you don't bet, someone else will. In this scenario, where AA, KK, QQ, and JJ are likely to be held by villains, it is possible for them to raise the turn allowing for a possible 9bbs to be put in or even moreYou're right, I don't play @ stars .5/1 but I'm surprised if they're actually reading hands and the guy w/KK or AA doesn't raise the turn. In fact, I'm very very surprised.translation: your games suck balls and move to sh lhe where the money is

[cubbybri 0]

This is actually coming from some less experienced but....I think we are cappng for value on flop.I have reconsidered the turn though and with a non heart turn, I like check raising to protect my hand as I think you will get the bet behind(I see it did hehe).Back to deception, is the check on the flop to hide the stength of your hand.Originally I was not thinking how big pot was on turn and that we had 3 peeps showing interest.Up to this point we only fear TT so that is wh I feel most cases the cap flop is value.I'm just getting back in groove(and I was never much in groove to begin with) so don'y be to harsh if off base here.

[Actuary 3]

now here is a completely new idea to me. care to elaborate?

You risk less $$$BUT this is clearly presuming your hand is less vulnerable relative to the pot size.How live everyone is, etc

You're right, I don't play @ stars .5/1 but I'm surprised if they're actually reading hands and the guy w/KK or AA doesn't raise the turn. In fact, I'm very very surprised.

MP1 might raise to protect his hand, if he thought I was semi-bluffing??? often enough, or overplaying AT.Generally typical decent players at that level dont expect me to have a worse hand often enough.

This is actually coming from some less experienced but....I think we are cappng for value on flop.Back to deception, is the check on the flop to hide the stength of your hand.Up to this point we only fear TT so that is wh I feel most cases the cap flop is value.I'm just getting back in groove(and I was never much in groove to begin with) so don'y be to harsh if off base here.

I agree capping the flop is straight forward for value, no doubt.Not capping had more to do with getting more BB's in on the turn. (and the fact the flop is often cappped anyway)If MP1 caps the flop, then I c/r the turn (any turn because the pf action makes a fd less likely)If MP1 did not cap, I would lead the Turn, trapping MP1 in the middleGiven action so far, I felt MP1 caps a lot here, so I don't lose any value on the flopSome people think leading the turn would lead to more BB getting in, than c/r'ing

[cubbybri 0]

You risk less $$$BUT this is clearly presuming your hand is less vulnerable relative to the pot size.How live everyone is, etcMP1 might raise to protect his hand, if he thought I was semi-bluffing??? often enough, or overplaying AT.Generally typical decent players at that level dont expect me to have a worse hand often enough.I agree capping the flop is straight forward for value, no doubt.Not capping had more to do with getting more BB's in on the turn. (and the fact the flop is often cappped anyway)If MP1 caps the flop, then I c/r the turn (any turn because the pf action makes a fd less likely)If MP1 did not cap, I would lead the Turn, trapping MP1 in the middleGiven action so far, I felt MP1 caps a lot here, so I don't lose any value on the flopSome people think leading the turn would lead to more BB getting in, than c/r'ing

Thanks for the great info.

[RISEorFall 0]

i love the turnif MP2 had capped the flop instead of MP1, we should betbut because of our positional relation to the flop capper, we can hope to trap them for 2 (or 3!) bets, instead of maybe forcing MP2 to call 2 cold. i havent decided on the flop. at first glance i like it, as I think it gives us the best opportunity to make more bets on later streets.but i wonder about capping the flop and c/r the turn. I think AA and KK will most likely still bet the turn when checked to, even if the flop capper checks.