Qj Off Again

[Actuary 3]

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)Preflop: Actuary is CO with , . UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Actuary calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Actuary calls, SB folds.Flop: (13 SB) , , (6 players)BB bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Actuary ?and anyone raise preflop?BB: 21/18/1UTG: 26/4/0.4UTG+1: 39/0/0.8~30 hands

[Zach6668 513]

QJs, I'd raise pf, here I'd limp.I'd fold this flop.

[SCS 0]

I agree with Zach.I don't like paying 3 maybe 4 bets on the flop for the second nut flush.

[Zach6668 513]

I agree with Zach.I don't like paying 3 maybe 4 bets on the flop with a huge potential to be drawing dead.

FYP.

[SCS 0]

FYP.

Yeah, that too.

[Actuary 3]

Because the Ks Raises or 3-bets there?

[Zach6668 513]

Because the Ks Raises or 3-bets there?

KsXs does, Ks bets it, etc.It's just too likely that the Ks is out in a 6 way flop, for me to be putting money in here.

[Actuary 3]

KsXs does, Ks bets it, etc.It's just too likely that the Ks is out in a 6 way flop, for me to be putting money in here.

I'm worried more about a set or two pair based on the betting and wondering if getting 25:4 to call the flop bets is worth itBut I only have a small concern of a Ks.There are only 6 unknown cards in play and I really don't see the UTG or UTG+1 playing it like that, whether it's a draw or madeBB, sure, AxKs possible. (edit: the 6 unknown is a bad number, because we know the folded hands probably don't have the Ks)Don't get me wrong, the call is debateable, maybe bad, but I'm simply disagreeing with the reason.I should wait for more discussion before defending! :)come all and opine!!!

[walkabout 0]

With 4 callers and the button and blinds yet to act, I don't see a PF raise doing anything good. They would only have to call 1more bet. The button and sb may drop.I am nowhere "up to speed" on the math yet. Especially online. I can do the pot odds for flush and oe straight draws but I am still working on pot equity edge and stuff. So alot of my decisions are "gut feelings". I see this pot becoming huge. I couldn't fold here with the second nut. I'm 35% to make my flush and I have 3 others in. If I make my flush, there is only 1 card that canbeat me. I would never fold to a 1 outer. I'm not doing any raising but I would call to see the river.

[Zach6668 513]

With 4 callers and the button and blinds yet to act, I don't see a PF raise doing anything good. They would only have to call 1more bet. The button and sb may drop.I am nowhere "up to speed" on the math yet. Especially online. I can do the pot odds for flush and oe straight draws but I am still working on pot equity edge and stuff. So alot of my decisions are "gut feelings". I see this pot becoming huge. I couldn't fold here with the second nut. I'm 35% to make my flush and I have 3 others in. If I make my flush, there is only 1 card that canbeat me. I would never fold to a 1 outer. I'm not doing any raising but I would call to see the river.

http://pokerstove.com^^ I would recommend downloading, and playing aroudn with that a bit. You'll start to get an idea of how other hands do vs certain ranges HU, or multiway, etc. It helps a lot with the pot equity concepts.

[walkabout 0]

Thanks Zach. I am downloading that now. Great forum and contributors.

[Dogpatch 2]

I raise this preflop and hopefully get KsXs to fold so that my Qs will be good. :)But seriously I do raise PF. Maybe I overplay the CO and Button. On this board I stay if it's cheap and if I make the flush, I'm going to the river as cheaply as possible if I believe the the K is out there. I just can't stop thinking about a PF raise here and then hopefully this wouldn't be 6 way action.

[Zach6668 513]

Meh, not sure about raising pf after 4 limpers.

[Frez 0]

I raise this preflop and hopefully get KsXs to fold so that my Qs will be good. :)But seriously I do raise PF. Maybe I overplay the CO and Button. On this board I stay if it's cheap and if I make the flush, I'm going to the river as cheaply as possible if I believe the the K is out there. I just can't stop thinking about a PF raise here and then hopefully this wouldn't be 6 way action.

I don't think a PFR loses a suited king here (and is that really what you're thinking preflop?), so I can't see a raise thinning the field. And your QJ is not suited, so you've got a relatively weak drawing hand: see the flop before you start throwing money at it.

[Dogpatch 2]

Meh, not sure about raising pf after 4 limpers.

It being Limit... probably not.

I don't think a PFR loses a suited king here (and is that really what you're thinking preflop?), so I can't see a raise thinning the field. And your QJ is not suited, so you've got a relatively weak drawing hand: see the flop before you start throwing money at it.

No, not really what I'd be thinking, hence the smiley face.You guys are right, a PFR probably doesn't really do anything for us. As I said, I'm probably overplaying postion here.

[Moneyball16 0]

It being Limit... probably not.

Youd raise this in no limit?

[Flushgarden 0]

Am I the only one that thinks about folding preflop here?

[RISEorFall 0]

Am I the only one that thinks about folding preflop here?

with 4 limpers already and us being in CO, you probably are.

[finztotheleft 0]

Am I the only one that thinks about folding preflop here?

I'm not a big QJo fan either, but having position on this many limpers, I might be tempted.I probably would have capped the flop for the 2nd nut flush draw. If the K of spades is out, oh well, my bad

[Dogpatch 2]

Youd raise this in no limit?

No, I meant that with that many limpers, a single bet is not going to force them to fold. Still, I might give it a try.

Am I the only one that thinks about folding preflop here?

Very likely.

I'm not a big QJo fan either, but having position on this many limpers, I might be tempted.I probably would have capped the flop for the 2nd nut flush draw. If the K of spades is out, oh well, my bad

6 way it's probably out there, but I'm with you. GG us.

[mikeysong 0]

folding is retarded vs 4 limpersit's hard outplaying 4 limpersraising QJ doesn't have much equity as someone could limp w/pp, ax etc.so why is raising to represent a good hand and play our position bad imo? see statement #2

[Dogpatch 2]

folding is retarded vs 4 limpersit's hard outplaying 4 limpersraising QJ doesn't have much equity as someone could limp w/pp, ax etc.so why is raising to represent a good hand and play our position bad imo? see statement #2

I agree it's hard to outplay 4 limpers, but doesn't raising to represent and playing our position make it a little easier? Just limping here gets us nothing. If we raise and get two of them to fold...

[Flushgarden 0]

folding is retarded vs 4 limpers

Preflop, with 4 limpers in front and 3 left to act behind us we can be sure we are dominated by at least one of them, and we could possibly be drawing dead to a straight.If we're playin NL then of course we limp right along here because the implied odds are there, but they're not here. Also postflop I'd fold. I'm an agressive mfer but only when I think I have a reasonable chance to win the hand.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I agree it's hard to outplay 4 limpers, but doesn't raising to represent and playing our position make it a little easier? Just limping here gets us nothing. If we raise and get two of them to fold...

Get two of the limpers to fold? When, if they completely whiff the flop? Or if they nail the flop, but decide you have AA, and make a big laydown? Plainly and simply: Our hand doesn't have the equity edge we need to justify putting an extra bet into the pot (in generaly). It makes the pot bigger, tying us to it further, and when we ARE behind, we're behind for not just our equity deficit-share of the extra money we put in RIGHT NOW, but the extra money we'll be forced to put in LATER, because we made the pot all swole up.There are cases in games where you need to splash chips around, in order to loosen the game up, and force players to bring more marginal hands to the table. It's situations like THIS- rarely a huge dog, multiway pot, weakish hand with potential to flop big, a hand that weak players CONSISTENTLY overplay preflop- that I look to get more chips into the pot when I'm likely just not a huge dog. If you raise 4 limpers with this hand preflop, flop hard, and get to showdown, the solid players at the table will be more inclined to think "dude likes raising the field with QJo. thinks any two paint is good, likes to gamble." Then chips start coming loose and the game becomes softer.When it goes bet, raise, 3-bet and you're calling 3-cold (with the likelihood of a cap behind you, so 3.5ish cold) with the second nut spade draw and no good way to win the pot otherwise, I'm inclined to fold for a few reasons: 1) If we're favorites here, I don't think folding is such a big mistake that the equity we sacrifice is significantly detrimental to our winrate2) The hand might get very costly- whether we get there or not3) ROIs = awful4) I'm lazyWang

[Zach6668 513]

Preflop, with 4 limpers in front and 3 left to act behind us we can be sure we are dominated by at least one of them, and we could possibly be drawing dead to a straight.

Why would you assume they are limping with dominating hands? I think that's unlikely. AJ/AQ raise, KQ/KJ sometimes raise, and those are the only hands that dominate us.