14 replies to this topic

[nogobusto]

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

Button ($69.35)
Hero ($68.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q , Q .
1 fold, Hero raises to $2, Button raises to $6, 2 folds, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($12.75) 6 , 3 , 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $7, Hero raises to $24?

======

Villain is 17% VP$IP and 7.5% PFR over about 100 hands. My image was not overly tight, but definitely not LAG/LAP. I decided not to 4-bet preflop since I'd be OOP and I'd likely only get action from better hands. I would have liked to take it down preflop with a 4-bet, but with a PFR of 7.5% at 6max, I think even his button 3-bet range is too narrow for me to hope to do that.

I decided I was playing my hand mainly for set value but could also be against AK/99-JJ a fair amount of the time. After the flop, I decided to check. I was almost positive he'd bet as he had c-bet 100% of his PFR's. I think a check-raise is the best way to find out if our hand is best, right? AA/KK will usually push and AK(if not suited in diamonds) will usually dump. Other pairs can go either way. I don't like leading as lots of hands will raise us and I don't like calling since we're allowing worse hands to draw against us and we'll likely be facing a bet on the turn that costs as much as our flop raise. Thoughts?

[wsox8]

After the raise on the flop, we are left with $38 assuming he just calls.

Theres $60 in the pot if he calls the flop bet. I would probably push all in on the turn, & are you folding to a push on the flop?

I'm confused so I'll wait and see what others think. I'm still new to this

[Zach6668]

OP has just made my day.

Welcome to the forums, and thank you for posting a hand that isn't a bad beat/cooler whine post, and thank you for converting it, and cutting it off where the decision is to be made. Man, you even included reads on him, AND how you think he saw you.

I almost want to sticky this as the prototypical first post.

I guess what I'm really saying is, do you want to make out?

[nogobusto]

lol Zach. I tried my best to have a good first post!

wsox, I think he will almost never call my raise on the flop. With the hand going the way it is, he'll either push or fold a hugely large majority of the time. I think I have to fold to a push since A.) his preflop 3-bet range is probably quite narrow and B.) Someone that tight is probably only shoving TT-AA and AKdd, and I think AA and KK are most likely. I'm drawing terribly against those and AKdd is almost exactly 50/50.

If he does for some reason call my flop raise, I think I will push the turn. Since I feel so strongly that he'd push with QQ+, I think the only hands he'd call my flop raise with are lower pairs and flush draws. If the turn is a diamond, then I guess I'll curse softly at my monitor and push anyway (I've got 4 outs to a boat!...) Although now thihking about it, I guess a diamond isn't all that bad on the turn since the only hand with two diamonds I can imagine him having is AKdd, which I think he'd push often enough to make a Td turn or something not all that scary.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that calling preflop and checkraising most flops is the best way to play this. I'd like to hear some more opinions, though.

[docnuclear]

lol Zach. I tried my best to have a good first post!

wsox, I think he will almost never call my raise on the flop. With the hand going the way it is, he'll either push or fold a hugely large majority of the time. I think I have to fold to a push since A.) his preflop 3-bet range is probably quite narrow and B.) Someone that tight is probably only shoving TT-AA and AKdd, and I think AA and KK are most likely. I'm drawing terribly against those and AKdd is almost exactly 50/50.

If he does for some reason call my flop raise, I think I will push the turn. Since I feel so strongly that he'd push with QQ+, I think the only hands he'd call my flop raise with are lower pairs and flush draws. If the turn is a diamond, then I guess I'll curse softly at my monitor and push anyway (I've got 4 outs to a boat!...) Although now thihking about it, I guess a diamond isn't all that bad on the turn since the only hand with two diamonds I can imagine him having is AKdd, which I think he'd push often enough to make a Td turn or something not all that scary.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that calling preflop and checkraising most flops is the best way to play this. I'd like to hear some more opinions, though.

very good reasoning I think. I'm playing the same as you, also I'd like to be able to get away from the hand so I'm making a slightly smaller raise to 20 and am fairly confident I'm behind if he pushes.
Interesting question is if he calls and a non diamond below J comes on the turn, do you push or check to induce a push ?

[Acid_Knight]

I guess what I'm really saying is, do you want to make out?

I was going to hint to that very thing Zach. Thanks for saving me the trouble.

To the OP:

I am not sure that I like your line. If you think he has a bigger pair than you a decent percentage of the time, then you're throwing away money. He'll come over top (and I assume you'll fold) if he has AA or KK, but he also might do it with JJ, in which case you're making a big mistake.

He made a small bet, which you should be happy to call if you think there's a good chance that he might be beating you. You keep the pot small and unless he has a flush draw, then he can have 6 outs at most where if you're behind, you'll have 2. If he keeps betting half of the pot like that, you might be able to get to showdown for only slightly more than your $24 raise that you put in on the flop.

I don't hate the idea of raising to $24, but if the villain has AA or KK and he's smart, he will only flat call because he'll put you on the right type of hand and since he has position on you, you're gonna be in a tough spot if another small card falls on the turn. It enables him to trap you in the hand since he knows that you can't get a free card since he has position.

[TJ_Eckleburg]

I was going to hint to that very thing Zach. Thanks for saving me the trouble.

And with less homoerotic overtures, no doubt, haha.

How do we feel about check/calling the flop and then donking and/or pushing a safe turn?

I kind of like that. I prefer to give HIM the tough decision to call.

[antistuff]

i like a lead here for 3/4 of the pot.

[TJ_Eckleburg]

i like a lead here for 3/4 of the pot.

Only problem I have with that is that we can count on villain for a raise and we still don't know where we're at.

[No_Neck]

blah blah blah

do you really give him KK or AA I mean it was folded to the CO and he raised and the button reraised? i mean I know the stats are nitty but it could be AK here...

[Acid_Knight]

do you really give him KK or AA I mean it was folded to the CO and he raised and the button reraised? i mean I know the stats are nitty but it could be AK here...

Not necessarily, but he is pretty tight, so I'd give him a fairly narrow range. I just don't like the idea of throwing a lot of chips at him to find out where we're at when we can possibly see a showdown for about the same price as our flop raise. It's a WA/WB (yeah, I think 6 outs should count as WA for us here) kind of deal and I think that if he's betting half of the pot, we should be happy to call it for now. Against tight opponents, I just don't see much of a reason to get out of line here when we don't know where we are at.

[nogobusto]

I was going to hint to that very thing Zach. Thanks for saving me the trouble.

To the OP:

I am not sure that I like your line. If you think he has a bigger pair than you a decent percentage of the time, then you're throwing away money. He'll come over top (and I assume you'll fold) if he has AA or KK, but he also might do it with JJ, in which case you're making a big mistake.

He made a small bet, which you should be happy to call if you think there's a good chance that he might be beating you. You keep the pot small and unless he has a flush draw, then he can have 6 outs at most where if you're behind, you'll have 2. If he keeps betting half of the pot like that, you might be able to get to showdown for only slightly more than your $24 raise that you put in on the flop.

I don't hate the idea of raising to $24, but if the villain has AA or KK and he's smart, he will only flat call because he'll put you on the right type of hand and since he has position on you, you're gonna be in a tough spot if another small card falls on the turn. It enables him to trap you in the hand since he knows that you can't get a free card since he has position.

Thanks to everyone who replied. This post brings up some really good points. I'd like to ask though... you call the flop and the turn is the 8 . do you check/fold? bet/fold? I feel like betting exposes our hand much like you said on the flop. We've kept the pot a reasonable size and shown villain we could be sticking around, but we still have no idea where we are.

Anyway, yeah. You call his flop bet, turn is 8d, decide that betting is a bad option, and check. He bets $17 at the $26 pot. Hero...? (I'm assuming you'd say check the turn to the previous question.)

[Acid_Knight]

Thanks to everyone who replied. This post brings up some really good points. I'd like to ask though... you call the flop and the turn is the 8 . do you check/fold? bet/fold? I feel like betting exposes our hand much like you said on the flop. We've kept the pot a reasonable size and shown villain we could be sticking around, but we still have no idea where we are.

Anyway, yeah. You call his flop bet, turn is 8d, decide that betting is a bad option, and check. He bets $17 at the $26 pot. Hero...?

The 8d is very different from the 8h. I'm getting less and less excited about the hand the worse the board becomes and the villain keeps betting. If you just call the $17 bet, then you'll have invested the same $24 that you would've if you raised the flop and now you've seen the river. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm calling here as well. You're probably gonna have to call another bet if a diamond doesn't fall. I don't know, I think ISAP lately.

[nogobusto]

The 8d is very different from the 8h. I'm getting less and less excited about the hand the worse the board becomes and the villain keeps betting. If you just call the $17 bet, then you'll have invested the same $24 that you would've if you raised the flop and now you've seen the river. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm calling here as well. You're probably gonna have to call another bet if a diamond doesn't fall. I don't know, I think ISAP lately.

Whoopsie. The turn is the 8h. Ehh...

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

Button ($69.35)
Hero ($68.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q , Q .
1 fold, Hero raises to $2, Button raises to $6, 2 folds, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($12.75) 6 , 3 , 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $7, Hero calls $7.

Turn: ($26.75) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $17, Hero calls $17.

River: ($60.75) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $39.35 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $60.75

============

I wasn't happy with the way the hand turned out. I was slightly bothered that Villain could very well have had AK or a pair lower than QQ. It bothered me to the point that I made my first post about it after lurking for a while Hmm. Maybe he has AA/KK most of the time he pushes the river? I guess this hand can be played either way, sensitive to your read on Villain postflop. Probably had I played it the way I posted in the OP and had to fold to a flop shove, I'd be wishing I'd check/called the flop and turn as I did.

[Acid_Knight]

Messy hand. I could go either way on it. I think he had you beaten, but look at it this way. If you raised the flop and he pushed, you'd have folded anyway. This way, you got 2 cards for the same price and you got the chance to outdraw him.