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2-5 Nl, Kk Deep Stacked


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#21 David_Nicoson

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 06:54 AM

View PostKramitDaToad, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 9:56 AM, said:

Preflop: Raise more. You have a loose image and are therefore expected to try to steal out of the straddle.
That's a good point. Hero is going to get a ton of action from medium pairs and AQ+.Even disregarding the straddle aspect, this is an excellent (and apparent) chance to squeeze since we are last to act and a whole herd of people just called the raise. Smart opponents should be suspicious that the hero is raising light here.
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#22 Royal_Tour

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 07:46 AM

View PostGanador, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 6:46 AM, said:

OK, well i agreed with everyone but royal, cause i still say checking here is just not an option, and a bad play. I shoved, he goes "you got 10 10 you win" and showws me 33, oh well. I just had a feeling like he was bigger preflop to not have a set here, guess i was wrong.
so Royal is correct, but no one agrees with him. :)Super systems works wonders, until your realize that a lot of people play poker their own way.its up to you to find out who is who.like i said. small raise to 25 and then smooth call should tell you right away he is playing for set value or suited connnectors.and Folks.where i come from, our live NL games are capped after the 3rd raise. so its raise, re-raise re-raise again and its capped. a live straddle is not considered a bet since the straddle will be last to act.



#23 Royal_Tour

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 07:52 AM

View PostLavitz, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 12:31 AM, said:

I am a fairly good HU player. Checking after you 3 bet preflop KK p-flop on a 1023 board with a possible flush draw seems pretty bad though. There is 350 in the pot with original raiser having 900 behind. We're playing a big pot for stacks now and we put a lot of money in preflop which means less play postflop. A 1023 board with a flush draw means we are most likely ahead but there is no reason to check a huge 3 bet pot. If he checks and a scare card hits (Ace, flush card, maybe a J or Q since JJ and QQ are defintley in his range) we could either lose action because of it or lose the pot by allowing him to catch up if the card hits his hand.If he is loose/tricky/agressive I might check to induce a bluff but only with the intention of check-raising. If he is a normal TAG then only hands I see him beating us with here is 1010. Most players won't raise 22 or 33 so I'm not as concerned with them. I think this is much more likely JJ-QQ or even a middle PP. Maybe he is putting you on a squeeze play. You might even see a retarded hand like A10 or air. A flush draw is also very possible. Bottom line is you are ahead much more often then not in this situation. For those who advocate checking, why? If he pot bets it we have less info then we do now. Is he potting it because we checked? Does he have a hand? Would he pot it with a monster or slowplay? Check/Folding=Horrible and checking with the intention to call or raise is bad simply because we don't have a read of him being aggressive or anything to lead us to believe he would fire a pot hard after we 3 bet and then check. Maybe with some extra reads I would check but not here. I think you're ahead of his range here by A LOT. Push.
Check lets you see what kind of bet villain shoves out there. 10,10, 3,3, 2,2 obv wants action. A,X might make a bet to see what you hold, and wil fold to a strong raise.JJ,QQ would probably also do a similar type play.He's already a tight player, he will believe you. I dont like the idea of investing a pot size bet here this deep after that preflop action.only good news is he had air and folds. which he does to a check raise also, or if its checked through he does to a turn bet.



#24 Acid_Knight

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 08:18 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 8:52 AM, said:

Check lets you see what kind of bet villain shoves out there. 10,10, 3,3, 2,2 obv wants action. A,X might make a bet to see what you hold, and wil fold to a strong raise.JJ,QQ would probably also do a similar type play.He's already a tight player, he will believe you. I dont like the idea of investing a pot size bet here this deep after that preflop action.only good news is he had air and folds. which he does to a check raise also, or if its checked through he does to a turn bet.
I gotta be honest here, I think checking in this spot would be absolutely retarded. He easily has QQ or JJ here. He might go crazy with a medium pair figuring that the flop didn't help us. The only hands I'm worried about being beaten by are TT and a flush draw (unless of course the villain actually has 33) but it's hard to play pots like this and not go broke because you have created a big pot OOP against an opponent who you know is unlikely to think you have a big hand (making it more likely that he will play back at you with lesser holdings) when you actually do have a very big hand here.

#25 KramitDaToad

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 08:23 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 4:46 PM, said:

and Folks.where i come from, our live NL games are capped after the 3rd raise. so its raise, re-raise re-raise again and its capped. a live straddle is not considered a bet since the straddle will be last to act.
Nobody is worried about the straddle. It's irrelevant.You said a reraise by the hero wasn't a 3-bet. For the sake of consistent terminology: it is.

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 4:52 PM, said:

Check lets you see what kind of bet villain shoves out there. 10,10, 3,3, 2,2 obv wants action. A,X might make a bet to see what you hold, and wil fold to a strong raise.JJ,QQ would probably also do a similar type play.He's already a tight player, he will believe you. I dont like the idea of investing a pot size bet here this deep after that preflop action.only good news is he had air and folds. which he does to a check raise also, or if its checked through he does to a turn bet.
Its a $350+ (70BB) pot, you have a great hand and you are recommending: not building a bigger pot when we are likely to be in front :icon_doh:giving away potential free cards :club: :D

#26 Sefaje

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 09:00 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 10:52 AM, said:

Check lets you see what kind of bet villain shoves out there. 10,10, 3,3, 2,2 obv wants action. A,X might make a bet to see what you hold, and wil fold to a strong raise.JJ,QQ would probably also do a similar type play.He's already a tight player, he will believe you. I dont like the idea of investing a pot size bet here this deep after that preflop action.only good news is he had air and folds. which he does to a check raise also, or if its checked through he does to a turn bet.
this post makes absolutely no sense.

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 10:52 AM, said:

Check lets you see what kind of bet villain shoves out there. 10,10, 3,3, 2,2 obv wants action. A,X might make a bet to see what you hold, and wil fold to a strong raise.JJ,QQ would probably also do a similar type play.
So you're check/raising when he bets, which pot commits you. How is this any better than just betting out? You're acting like checking will allow you to fold when you're beat, and it wont.

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 10:52 AM, said:

He's already a tight player, he will believe you. I dont like the idea of investing a pot size bet here this deep after that preflop action.only good news is he had air and folds. which he does to a check raise also, or if its checked through he does to a turn bet.
Wrong --- he's a "solid" player, which means he is observant of those around him and plays accordingly. if Hero's image is LAGish, then villain won't just automuck QQ to a flop c-bet here. So there's a LOT of good news other than just collecting the pot on the flop. If the flop checks through, that's a disaster. Villain's range is fairly wide, and almost any turn card can be reasonably scary to us, especially a Q, J, T, or Ace. Also, since our image is LAG, we want to keep our hand looking as "bluffish" as possible. Checking the flop doesn't do that and fails to extract value from lower pairs and flush draws.What it comes down to, i think, is that you think villain is a magical player that will only invest another penny when WE bet when he has TT,33, or 22... and will ALWAYS bet when we're ahead of him if we check to him on the flop. and that just isn't reasonable at all.edit: by the way...SB/BB/Straddle = 1betpreflop raiser = 2betHero's re-raise = 3bet

#27 Sefaje

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 09:06 AM

(post about villain having 33 and stacking hero)

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 10:46 AM, said:

so Royal is correct, but no one agrees with him. :)Super systems works wonders, until your realize that a lot of people play poker their own way.its up to you to find out who is who.like i said. small raise to 25 and then smooth call should tell you right away he is playing for set value or suited connnectors.and Folks.where i come from, our live NL games are capped after the 3rd raise. so its raise, re-raise re-raise again and its capped. a live straddle is not considered a bet since the straddle will be last to act.
No. NO. results do NOT matter. most of the time people post hands they lost and you know this, stop trying to validate your terrible advice based on the results. saying youre right and everyone else is wrong is something id expect from someone who has no idea what a "range" is and has never read a poker strategy forum before.

#28 Ganador

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 09:48 AM

Dear Royal, your above statements make no sesne, you say his raise, then smooth call of the re-raise suggests he has a smaller pair or suited connectors, YET you then suggest I check a not overly dangerous board, which he could easily check behind to draw to a flush, a striaght, (by your standards, 45 is not out of the question) or to hit his set. And if he does bet, I suppose i have to check raise, therefore committing myself, and having the same result as leading out except with LESS information. For the record, with a LAG style of play, when one straddles, gets a raise, and looks down at KK, this is a dream situation. So yes, he could be holding QQ or JJ and think that he is wayyyy ahead here, and hence play them in this manner. Basically i got unlucky that he hit a set, cause otherwise I am winning a very large pot here if he has QQ or JJ like he is supposed to. and the raise to 25 does in no way mean he doesnt have these hands, i play live 30-40 hours a week and see that raise from that hand time and time again.

#29 Naismith

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 10:02 AM

I do understand what Royal's saying here. That preflop raise certainly looks more like a pot builder than a big hand. I'm not sure if I play this any differently, but wouldn't you think JJ or QQ would want to raise more than 2.5xstraddle?
Peace,
Jay



#30 Acid_Knight

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 10:07 AM

View PostNaismith, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 11:02 AM, said:

I do understand what Royal's saying here. That preflop raise certainly looks more like a pot builder than a big hand. I'm not sure if I play this any differently, but wouldn't you think JJ or QQ would want to raise more than 2.5xstraddle?
Not if he thinks the villain has been aggressive and will reraise from the straddle. Also, are we sure that he saw it was a straddle. I know that's always a consideration in the live games that I play in.

#31 Naismith

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 10:11 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 10:07 AM, said:

Not if he thinks the villain has been aggressive and will reraise from the straddle. Also, are we sure that he saw it was a straddle. I know that's always a consideration in the live games that I play in.
That happens quite frequently in my really bad drug dealer 2/5 game as well.
Peace,
Jay



#32 KramitDaToad

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 10:15 AM

View PostNaismith, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 7:02 PM, said:

I do understand what Royal's saying here. That preflop raise certainly looks more like a pot builder than a big hand. I'm not sure if I play this any differently, but wouldn't you think JJ or QQ would want to raise more than 2.5xstraddle?
What is this obsession with QQ & JJ? There are a ton of different hands that play exactly the same way that we still beat.It's basic 3rd level thinking - what does he think I have.Hero is LAG and re-raising out of a straddle. A competent villain's range is massive.

#33 Naismith

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 10:20 AM

View PostKramitDaToad, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 10:15 AM, said:

What is this obsession with QQ & JJ? There are a ton of different hands that play exactly the same way that we still beat.It's basic 3rd level thinking - what does he think I have.Hero is LAG and re-raising out of a straddle. A competent villain's range is massive.
Well, the only read we have on the guy is that he's fairly solid, not making many moves. I'm sure if the OP had said "I'm sitting across from Gus Hansen", we can make his range much larger. That said, maybe 88 thinking you have AK or AQ? I don't think the range here is huge.
Peace,
Jay



#34 Ganador

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 10:22 AM

View PostKramitDaToad, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 10:15 AM, said:

What is this obsession with QQ & JJ? There are a ton of different hands that play exactly the same way that we still beat.It's basic 3rd level thinking - what does he think I have.Hero is LAG and re-raising out of a straddle. A competent villain's range is massive.
Thank you Kramit. And to answer above, yes he knew it was a straddle, as I had been doing it for the better part of 6 hours. And hammered quite a few of them earlier in the day. He easily could of had complete air with his raise, or something like 10 J or A 10. even 99-44. I basically just wanted to confrim that i didnt do something stupid in this hand to dump a 2K+ pot. In hindsight i should of bumped it a bit more preflop and just shut him down there, cause we were both fairly deepstacked. Thanks for the advice guys, i think you will be hearing from me more often.

#35 KramitDaToad

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 10:27 AM

View PostNaismith, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 7:20 PM, said:

Well, the only read we have on the guy is that he's fairly solid, not making many moves. I'm sure if the OP had said "I'm sitting across from Gus Hansen", we can make his range much larger. That said, maybe 88 thinking you have AK or AQ? I don't think the range here is huge.
Any Ax heart, KQh, any pair, AT, JT, even air will play this way if the villain thinks hero is raising lightEDIT: Sorry Ganador, I've essentially just double-posted you :club:

#36 Naismith

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 10:32 AM

View PostGanador, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 10:22 AM, said:

Thank you Kramit. And to answer above, yes he knew it was a straddle, as I had been doing it for the better part of 6 hours. And hammered quite a few of them earlier in the day. He easily could of had complete air with his raise, or something like 10 J or A 10. even 99-44. I basically just wanted to confrim that i didnt do something stupid in this hand to dump a 2K+ pot. In hindsight i should of bumped it a bit more preflop and just shut him down there, cause we were both fairly deepstacked. Thanks for the advice guys, i think you will be hearing from me more often.
I don't think anyone here thinks you played the hand stupidly. This isn't a bad board to go broke with KK on.
Peace,
Jay



#37 Acid_Knight

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 10:38 AM

View PostNaismith, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 11:32 AM, said:

This isn't a bad board to go broke with KK on.
Sometimes you must have really misplayed a hand to go broke with KK here. In this situation, considering all of the variables, there's not much that can be done about it.

#38 Royal_Tour

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 08:22 PM

View PostSefaje, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 10:00 AM, said:

this post makes absolutely no sense.So you're check/raising when he bets, which pot commits you. How is this any better than just betting out? You're acting like checking will allow you to fold when you're beat, and it wont.Wrong --- he's a "solid" player, which means he is observant of those around him and plays accordingly. if Hero's image is LAGish, then villain won't just automuck QQ to a flop c-bet here. So there's a LOT of good news other than just collecting the pot on the flop. If the flop checks through, that's a disaster. Villain's range is fairly wide, and almost any turn card can be reasonably scary to us, especially a Q, J, T, or Ace. Also, since our image is LAG, we want to keep our hand looking as "bluffish" as possible. Checking the flop doesn't do that and fails to extract value from lower pairs and flush draws.What it comes down to, i think, is that you think villain is a magical player that will only invest another penny when WE bet when he has TT,33, or 22... and will ALWAYS bet when we're ahead of him if we check to him on the flop. and that just isn't reasonable at all.edit: by the way...SB/BB/Straddle = 1betpreflop raiser = 2betHero's re-raise = 3bet
Wrong.Villain is solid. villain doesnt raise to 25 from a straddle to 10, in a 2-5NL game unless he wants a pot builder for set value etc.. sometimes suited connectors work too.

View PostSefaje, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 10:06 AM, said:

(post about villain having 33 and stacking hero)No. NO. results do NOT matter. most of the time people post hands they lost and you know this, stop trying to validate your terrible advice based on the results. saying youre right and everyone else is wrong is something id expect from someone who has no idea what a "range" is and has never read a poker strategy forum before.
Wrong. I stated my opinions before the results. To me results do matter because I know I dont put villain on QQ JJ here with such a weird preflop bet. and then smooth call of the raise.

View PostGanador, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 10:48 AM, said:

Dear Royal, your above statements make no sesne, you say his raise, then smooth call of the re-raise suggests he has a smaller pair or suited connectors, YET you then suggest I check a not overly dangerous board, which he could easily check behind to draw to a flush, a striaght, (by your standards, 45 is not out of the question) or to hit his set. And if he does bet, I suppose i have to check raise, therefore committing myself, and having the same result as leading out except with LESS information. For the record, with a LAG style of play, when one straddles, gets a raise, and looks down at KK, this is a dream situation. So yes, he could be holding QQ or JJ and think that he is wayyyy ahead here, and hence play them in this manner. Basically i got unlucky that he hit a set, cause otherwise I am winning a very large pot here if he has QQ or JJ like he is supposed to. and the raise to 25 does in no way mean he doesnt have these hands, i play live 30-40 hours a week and see that raise from that hand time and time again.
Dear GanadorYour raise to 125 is weaksauce. I didnt bother to comment on that because i'm playing it now as is. And of course 4,5 is out of his range. I said his range is set value, or a big trap. I'm sure he thought he would get a few callers, look to flop a set or big draw with a juiced up pot. But then you re-raised to 125. theres a fair bit in the pot. ur laggy, he's got position. Why not make a loose call with low pocketsAnd, why would a tight player with QQ or JJ not want to re-raise a LAG player who straddles then raises? If you're really telling us the story on how it went down. My thought wuld be the "solid" player might put you on weak pockets, or A,x in which case QQ comes over the top.



#39 Royal_Tour

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 08:25 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 11:38 AM, said:

Sometimes you must have really misplayed a hand to go broke with KK here. In this situation, considering all of the variables, there's not much that can be done about it.
I think the fact that he cant get away from KK here misplayed.If I'm playing deep stacks NL and I go broke with KK just because its a low unconnecting board, I'd have to re-evaluate my game.I really dont like the looks of my KK after the raise. and i especially dont like it if he comes over the top of a check/raise



#40 Lavitz

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 08:37 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 8:25 PM, said:

I think the fact that he cant get away from KK here misplayed.If I'm playing deep stacks NL and I go broke with KK just because its a low unconnecting board, I'd have to re-evaluate my game.I really dont like the looks of my KK after the raise. and i especially dont like it if he comes over the top of a check/raise
There is no coming over the top of a check/raise then folding for us. A check/raise not only commits you, it puts so much money in the pot that it becomes HORRIBLE to fold. We're not getting away from this and if we do it'd be by doing something like betting half pot and then being able to fold to a reraise which seems like scared poker. Also, a check raise would basically put opponent all in anyways so he can't come over the top with anything significant.I'm going to reinforce that his raise to 25 doesn't mean suited connectors or small PP. A raise to 5BB is low with the straddle but you can't immediately put him on a hand because of it. Also, JJ/QQ play this the same, almost always. If OP's image is LAG then his hand range is even BIGGER here because he could be seeing our 3 bet as a move or correctly putting our 3 betting range as quite large and not necessarily strong.Why even play KK man if you are gonna play it so scared on a completely uncoordinated board such as 1023? Do you play KK/AA for set value only or something?




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