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2-5 Nl, Kk Deep Stacked


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#1 Ganador

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 06:53 PM

Okay, frist time posting in the strat forum. PLaying 2-5 NL live, i straddled with 1500 in front of me, and a fairly agressive loose image. Middle position player goes to 25, get 4 callers) I look down at KK and make it 125, original raiser is the only caller, with 900 left after the raise. He has been playing fairly solid, havent seen im make any huge moves, but also, havent seen his cards in many pots, but he got a lot of chips when he coolered a guy with nut flush over second nut flush. Flop comes 10 2 3, 2 hearts, i bet out 225, he raises to 600.What now????????

#2 danau

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 07:09 PM

shove

#3 Canary3

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 07:30 PM

I also shove.... I would have raised it to more than 125 preflop also.
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#4 Royal_Tour

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 07:36 PM

how certain are you he hold QQ or JJ?i mean, at 2-5. 1800 dollar pot for a pair of kings is monster.if this guy was drunk and loose, ok. do it.I think i like to checking to villain to see what he does.its too difficult now since he raised to 600. could be a set. could be Jacks - aces.edit. I think with kings or aces he raises more preflop @ 2-5when i played 2-5, standard raise was 25-30. so aces or kings could be even closer to 40-50



#5 Royal_Tour

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 07:40 PM

View PostGanador, on Thursday, May 10th, 2007, 7:53 PM, said:

coolered a guy with nut flush over second nut flush. What now????????
i dont find that much of a cooler, just some dumbasss who invested lots of chips with K high flush.



#6 Ganador

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 07:45 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Thursday, May 10th, 2007, 7:36 PM, said:

how certain are you he hold QQ or JJ?i mean, at 2-5. 1800 dollar pot for a pair of kings is monster.if this guy was drunk and loose, ok. do it.I think i like to checking to villain to see what he does.its too difficult now since he raised to 600. could be a set. could be Jacks - aces.edit. I think with kings or aces he raises more preflop @ 2-5when i played 2-5, standard raise was 25-30. so aces or kings could be even closer to 40-50
SO you are syaing htat i should raise to 125 preflop with kings, hit a ten high flop, and then CHECK?? i dont know about that. I dont see how i cant lead this board. i dont think checking is any sort of option, after the large reraise preflop.

#7 Royal_Tour

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 07:56 PM

View PostGanador, on Thursday, May 10th, 2007, 8:45 PM, said:

SO you are syaing htat i should raise to 125 preflop with kings, hit a ten high flop, and then CHECK?? i dont know about that. I dont see how i cant lead this board. i dont think checking is any sort of option, after the large reraise preflop.
its HU right? so play it like its HU.If u arent a good HU player, you wont understand where i'm trying to come from.You are supposed to study everyone at your table, and note the good the bad and the horrible.Now when ur HU with a guy you say is solid. u gotta think, is he capable of a C-bet after i raised preflop? Does he lead when strong? or does he slow play?what notes do you have?if you check, does he fire out with a set? does he play back at aggression? what about a check/raise? is he a loose enough player to raise to 600 with JJ or QQ? or chop with KK?so thats where your preflop your knowledge, and now your postflop come into play.My guess is AA or KK re-raises your aggression preflop. I know i would. if i think you're loose enough to make this same move with jacks.if i hold 10's or jacks here i might play for set value. and assuming we put you on AA,KK or QQ if we hit, we have great implied odds to double up off you.Only other thing is, if we do have Jacks, and we missed the flop but its 10 high, are our jacks good?so you C-bet the pot. maybe u have AK? i raise to 600. ur stuck with a huge choice now.?? is that basically what u thought that he migt think?which is why i like checking, to see what his line is.



#8 Royal_Tour

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 07:59 PM

For my own sake, i'm gonna imagine that you pushed, he called and he had AK hearts.which is pretty friggin lame if thats the case, because No decent player plays in such a way.i can almost tell by the way you worded this post that its probably the case



#9 Sefaje

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 08:37 PM

lol i 3bet/checkflop with this hand like neveri woulda made it like 150 preflop. and bet like 300 after flop. checking here is just bad

#10 Royal_Tour

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 09:26 PM

View PostSefaje, on Thursday, May 10th, 2007, 9:37 PM, said:

lol i 3bet/checkflop with this hand like neveri woulda made it like 150 preflop. and bet like 300 after flop. checking here is just bad
LOL there was no 3 bet. like OMG it was a live straddleOk. so you've narrowed him down to like JJ and QQ like totally right? cuz like. betting 300 and pushing out AK is like the best play, and getting raised from 10,10 and AA and then having to shove is like the best play also?cuz like. its totally easy to tell that this guy has JJ or QQ, like OMG so obvious right? lets lead out, make him raise and then we shove, cuz you know, check raising a guy with JJ or QQ here wouldnt be effective at all. Even though, supposedly, you know you're ahead so why bother playing like we know.In all seriousness though,The guy straddled at 2-5NL, so its 10 right away dark. nothing out of the norm.MP raises to 25 a weak weak bet at 2-5.so when he just calls the 125 raise, its pretty obv to put him on low PP or some kind of suited conncting, Ax suited type garbage.I see it everyday, my guess is he caught a set . but I can only imagine that this is a bad beat flush chase post



#11 Lavitz

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 11:31 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Thursday, May 10th, 2007, 7:56 PM, said:

its HU right? so play it like its HU.If u arent a good HU player, you wont understand where i'm trying to come from.You are supposed to study everyone at your table, and note the good the bad and the horrible.Now when ur HU with a guy you say is solid. u gotta think, is he capable of a C-bet after i raised preflop? Does he lead when strong? or does he slow play?what notes do you have?if you check, does he fire out with a set? does he play back at aggression? what about a check/raise? is he a loose enough player to raise to 600 with JJ or QQ? or chop with KK?so thats where your preflop your knowledge, and now your postflop come into play.My guess is AA or KK re-raises your aggression preflop. I know i would. if i think you're loose enough to make this same move with jacks.if i hold 10's or jacks here i might play for set value. and assuming we put you on AA,KK or QQ if we hit, we have great implied odds to double up off you.Only other thing is, if we do have Jacks, and we missed the flop but its 10 high, are our jacks good?so you C-bet the pot. maybe u have AK? i raise to 600. ur stuck with a huge choice now.?? is that basically what u thought that he migt think?which is why i like checking, to see what his line is.
I am a fairly good HU player. Checking after you 3 bet preflop KK p-flop on a 1023 board with a possible flush draw seems pretty bad though. There is 350 in the pot with original raiser having 900 behind. We're playing a big pot for stacks now and we put a lot of money in preflop which means less play postflop. A 1023 board with a flush draw means we are most likely ahead but there is no reason to check a huge 3 bet pot. If he checks and a scare card hits (Ace, flush card, maybe a J or Q since JJ and QQ are defintley in his range) we could either lose action because of it or lose the pot by allowing him to catch up if the card hits his hand.If he is loose/tricky/agressive I might check to induce a bluff but only with the intention of check-raising. If he is a normal TAG then only hands I see him beating us with here is 1010. Most players won't raise 22 or 33 so I'm not as concerned with them. I think this is much more likely JJ-QQ or even a middle PP. Maybe he is putting you on a squeeze play. You might even see a retarded hand like A10 or air. A flush draw is also very possible. Bottom line is you are ahead much more often then not in this situation. For those who advocate checking, why? If he pot bets it we have less info then we do now. Is he potting it because we checked? Does he have a hand? Would he pot it with a monster or slowplay? Check/Folding=Horrible and checking with the intention to call or raise is bad simply because we don't have a read of him being aggressive or anything to lead us to believe he would fire a pot hard after we 3 bet and then check. Maybe with some extra reads I would check but not here. I think you're ahead of his range here by A LOT. Push.

#12 docnuclear

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 12:42 AM

View PostGanador, on Thursday, May 10th, 2007, 6:53 PM, said:

Okay, frist time posting in the strat forum. PLaying 2-5 NL live, i straddled with 1500 in front of me, and a fairly agressive loose image. Middle position player goes to 25, get 4 callers) I look down at KK and make it 125, original raiser is the only caller, with 900 left after the raise. He has been playing fairly solid, havent seen im make any huge moves, but also, havent seen his cards in many pots, but he got a lot of chips when he coolered a guy with nut flush over second nut flush. Flop comes 10 2 3, 2 hearts, i bet out 225, he raises to 600.What now????????
given the preflop action I cannot see any othermove than shoving, he pot commited himself and I can't see a fold here with an overpair and this flop.I'm also voting for cbet since a check-check flop action could lead to a catastrophe like allowing him to catch up for free or folding the best hand later on

#13 Sefaje

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 03:10 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 12:26 AM, said:

LOL there was no 3 bet. like OMG it was a live straddleOk. so you've narrowed him down to like JJ and QQ like totally right? cuz like. betting 300 and pushing out AK is like the best play, and getting raised from 10,10 and AA and then having to shove is like the best play also?cuz like. its totally easy to tell that this guy has JJ or QQ, like OMG so obvious right? lets lead out, make him raise and then we shove, cuz you know, check raising a guy with JJ or QQ here wouldnt be effective at all. Even though, supposedly, you know you're ahead so why bother playing like we know.In all seriousness though,The guy straddled at 2-5NL, so its 10 right away dark. nothing out of the norm.MP raises to 25 a weak weak bet at 2-5.so when he just calls the 125 raise, its pretty obv to put him on low PP or some kind of suited conncting, Ax suited type garbage.I see it everyday, my guess is he caught a set . but I can only imagine that this is a bad beat flush chase post
do you know what a 3bet is? straddle was 10, dude raised to $25, hero 3-bet to $125.Also, the only hand we should be reasonably scared of is TT. Villain won't normally play AA like this. 22 and 33 are pretty low to raise/call for >%10 of stacks. If you're seriously saying that checking KK on a T23 with two hearts board is better than betting, im going to be very surprised. Hero's image is a bit loosey goosey. i don't know why you're saying a bet would automatically force villain to fold QQ and JJ and stay in only with AA/TT. AQh and AKh and other flush draws are more likely holdings than TT. Also, an ace on the turn would be awful. Checking accomplishes nothing. What are you going to do if he checks behind? assume we're ahead? assume we're beat? Are you going to bet most turns? what about a 3rd heart? what about an ace turn? what about a ten? or queen or jack?imo you're asking a lot of villain. youre assuming he only raises our flop bet when were behind, always folds to our bet when we're ahead, always bets the flop when checked to when we're ahead, and doesn't bet the flop when we're behind. because if you check to him and he bets, are you just calling? no, you're raising. and at that point you're not gonna get away from it anymore.you're more likely to make a mistake by checking and allowing villain to catch up than by just betting your hand. you're almost never going to get away from this cheaply if youre behind. worse hands (QQ/JJ/hands with 2 hearts/the occasional top pair) will put money in after the flop if you bet. checking isnt going to magically gain tons of value out of them.edit: lavitz post is good

#14 trystero

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 05:06 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Thursday, May 10th, 2007, 11:40 PM, said:

i dont find that much of a cooler, just some dumbasss who invested lots of chips with K high flush.
You don't think getting stacked with K9c to A2c on a QcTc5c6dJh board is a cooler?

#15 David_Nicoson

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 05:43 AM

I would raise more preflop. There's 6 x 25 = 150 in the pot after your call, so a pot-sized raise is to 175.As played, I think it's clear that your opponent is calling the last of his money. So the question here is, are your kings still good here a third of the time?350 in preflop + our 225 + his 900 = 14751475 : (900 - 225) = 2.2 : 1
Board: Th 3c 2hDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 56.279%  56.28% 00.00%			 71874 			0.00   { KK }Hand 1: 43.721%  43.72%	00.00% 			 55836 			0.00   { QQ-TT, 33-22, AhKh }
We're a coin flip to a pretty narrow range. If we fold here, it's because we don't think our opponent raises with hands that aren't sets. Given our reputation, I don't think that's very likely.It would be nice to know that he didn't have 22 or 33. If we make it 200 preflop, I'd feel pretty confident about pushing this flop.
Board: Th 3c 2hDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 73.920%  73.92% 00.00% 		   68058 		  0.00   { KK }Hand 1: 26.080%  26.08% 00.00% 		   24012 		  0.00   { QQ-TT, AhKh }

QUOTE(bleacherbum3 @ Friday, February 29th, 2008, 3:28 AM) View Post
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#16 Ganador

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 05:46 AM

OK, well i agreed with everyone but royal, cause i still say checking here is just not an option, and a bad play. I shoved, he goes "you got 10 10 you win" and showws me 33, oh well. I just had a feeling like he was bigger preflop to not have a set here, guess i was wrong.

#17 KramitDaToad

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 05:56 AM

The important thing here is your image. As a LAG, straddling and raising, the villain is going to put you on a huge range and respond accordingly. This makes his range a lot wider than TT+ AKh (against which you are still a favourite)Preflop: Raise more. You have a loose image and are therefore expected to try to steal out of the straddle. We can rule out villain as holding AA given that he has 4 players behind, your re-raise is small enough that him calling will drag others in and you've labelled him as solid.On the flop, checking this co-ordinated board would be the most donktastic move possible. From a LAG it screams strength and a solid player will take his infinite implied odds and check behind.Once he raises the flop, hands that beat you are TT, 33, 22. Hands that will make this raise against your image that you are beating are 44-99 (granted a lot less likely on the smaller pairs), JJ-QQ, AT, JT, 9T or any 2 hearts and some real long shots like 45 or A4, A5. ie Your equity against his range is massive and you are getting better than 3-1 to call. Your not folding. With 300 behind the rest of the villains money is going in almost always which does effectively reduce your pot odds, probably to about 9/4 but it's still +EV.Shovel time

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, May 11th, 2007, 6:26 AM, said:

LOL there was no 3 bet. like OMG it was a live straddle
Preflop: Middle position raises to 25 (2-bet), Hero reraises to 125 (3-bet).

#18 mtdesmoines

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 05:56 AM

View PostGanador, on Thursday, May 10th, 2007, 6:53 PM, said:

Okay, frist time posting in the strat forum. PLaying 2-5 NL live, i straddled with 1500 in front of me, and a fairly agressive loose image. Middle position player goes to 25, get 4 callers) I look down at KK and make it 125, original raiser is the only caller, with 900 left after the raise. He has been playing fairly solid, havent seen im make any huge moves, but also, havent seen his cards in many pots, but he got a lot of chips when he coolered a guy with nut flush over second nut flush. Flop comes 10 2 3, 2 hearts, i bet out 225, he raises to 600.What now????????
Get in your time machine, go back to preflop and make it $250 to go. But now that you're here, go ahead and shove.
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#19 David_Nicoson

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 06:21 AM

Let's figure this whole hand from the villains perspective at the point when he faces your raise. Assume that he always gets all-in with the hero if he hits a set or better and always folds if he doesn't.11.8% of the time he hits and wins 81.8% of those pots.The total pot is 250 + 900 x 2 = 2050.His equity in this pot is 2050 x 0.818 = 1677.He traded 1,000 for this equity, so his EV is +677.88.3% of the time he misses and folds.His EV in this case is -100.(0.118)($677) + (0.882)(-$100) = -$8.66So the villain is making a very small mistake by calling. I think we should encourage him to make a big mistake by raising more.
QUOTE(bleacherbum3 @ Friday, February 29th, 2008, 3:28 AM) View Post
I'm invincible. Like Super Mario when he gets that star thingy.


#20 Acid_Knight

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 06:43 AM

As everyone said, I'd be raising more preflop. On the flop, I'd be pushing but I wouldn't really be worrying about 22 or 33 since they seem kind of small for him to show up with. Apparently I am wrong though, but that happens.




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