Pot Control...

[bdc30 0]

Poker StarsPot Limit Omaha Ring gameBlinds: $3/$68 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $406.50UTG+1: $979.15MP1: $231MP2: $1556.55CO: $171.90Button: $492SB: $917.25Hero: $678Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with 2 8 T 7 UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, 3 folds, 3 folds, Hero checks.Flop: 5 6 9 ($21, 3 players)Hero bets $18, UTG+1 folds, MP2 raises to $73.95, Hero calls.Turn: 7 ($168.9, 2 players)Hero checks, MP2 bets $165.9, Hero calls.River: J ($500.7, 2 players)Hero is all-in $432.15

[Zach6668 513]

I actually really like this.We've got the nut high, but probably not the low.Maybe we can fold out a better low hand with a shove here. A4 or A3 maybe, I don't play PLO8 though, just LO8, and even then, not too much.

[Chamonyx 0]

check/fold flop.....this is a classic plo8 trap

[Zach6668 513]

check/fold flop.....this is a classic plo8 trap

With the nut straight, and a redraw to the bigger straight? We're certainly good for half the pot enough, if not all of the pot when the low doesn't get there.Again though, never played PLO8.

[checkymcfold 0]

cham, this isn't so bad HU. assuming the villain doesn't have a FD or set AND a counterfeit protected low, we scoop more often than we get scooped.that said, i typically c/c flop, donkshove safe turn in these sorts of spots, especially out of position.

[bdc30 0]

When the turn brings the low, of which mine sucks, am I still to donk-shove, knowing he's prolly freerolling me for the high half?

[checkymcfold 0]

When the turn brings the low, of which mine sucks, am I still to donk-shove, knowing he's prolly freerolling me for the high half?

nope. basically you're looking for a broadway card of some sort. an ace or deuce is also donkbet-able since it counterfeits most lows and if you c/c flop it won't cost a lot to get that kinda info.

[David_Nicoson 1]

You're in better shape here than I imagined.

pokenum  -o8 2c 8d td 7h  - ac 7c 8s 4d  -- 5d 6c 9c Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 9c 6c 5dcards		  scoop  HIwin  HIlos  HItie  LOwin  LOlos  LOtie	 EV2c Td  8d  7h	 32	123	292	405	 96	448	  0  0.3158s Ac  7c  4d	271	292	123	405	448	 96	  0  0.68pokenum  -o8 2c 8d td 7h  - ac jc js 4d  -- 5d 6c 9c Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 9c 6c 5dcards		  scoop  HIwin  HIlos  HItie  LOwin  LOlos  LOtie	 EV2c Td  8d  7h	245	504	316	  0	174	415	  0  0.492Js Ac  Jc  4d	258	316	504	  0	415	 27	  0  0.508

two dimes

[Chamonyx 0]

cham, this isn't so bad HU. assuming the villain doesn't have a FD or set AND a counterfeit protected low, we scoop more often than we get scooped.

no, we don't - thats the point. And there are only 9 cards that we like to see on the turn before potentially playing for our stack....I might call a half pot bet against a LAG, but I am perfectly content to lay this down on the flop.

[bdc30 0]

And there are only 9 cards that we like to see on the turn before potentially playing for our stack.

I think we're pretty well stacked here to play it just the way I did. We're not ever "playing for our stack" on the turn, as I kept the pot to a size that I could still c/c and wait for a safe river while still having 2/3 of my starting chips. Thus - the title of the thread. I'm oop, but can still control the size of the pot with a vulnerable high hand. I still had $432 left by the river, and with nut high, I think that's an autoshove.

[checkymcfold 0]

I think we're pretty well stacked here to play it just the way I did. We're not ever "playing for our stack" on the turn, as I kept the pot to a size that I could still c/c and wait for a safe river while still having 2/3 of my starting chips. Thus - the title of the thread. I'm oop, but can still control the size of the pot with a vulnerable high hand. I still had $432 left by the river, and with nut high, I think that's an autoshove.

i think you made your mistake on the flop, though. by betting out and allowing yourself to get raised, you inflated the pot to where you lose some meaningful $ on the turn if you don't hit a safe card. i agree with the title of your thread, but i think you could control the pot MORE with a very vulnerable hand (and OOP, which is super important here too) by just c/cing.cham, those are basically even #s against a non-cfp low draw hand range in terms of scooping, and the numbers david posted assume the low gets there on the turn. i'm talking about peeling the flop, when our scoop numbers are significantly higher since we're not looking at **** equity for the low after it's been made by a better hand. since we have the made hand, that's an easy c/peel flop imho. the villain's ev goes to **** if he misses the turn (note that the turn as the hand played out is HIT by the villain in all likelihood by giving him an almost-freeroll almost all of the time), and if we've kept the pot small, we can scoop the thing on the turn. i agree with your basic premises, that playing OOP and against strong draws sux0rz, but the odd thing is that here being OOP is actually better since we have the made hand. we can limit the pressure put on us on the flop and can donkpot the turn if it's safe, making the villain make a mistake most of the time if we don't plan to pay off a club river.this hand is actually a lot more interesting than i originally thought as i analyze it more, though. nice post bdc.

[bdc30 0]

i think you made your mistake on the flop, though. by betting out and allowing yourself to get raised, you inflated the pot to where you lose some meaningful $ on the turn if you don't hit a safe card.

ding ding ding --- i was waiting for someone to point that out.

[Zach6668 513]

Do any of the players who play this game more, think the river shove could ever fold out a better low? Like say an A4 or something like that?

[checkymcfold 0]

Do any of the players who play this game more, think the river shove could ever fold out a better low? Like say an A4 or something like that?

if a naked a4 calls off 450 on the river they'd be more than mildly retarded. if a naked a4 got to the river in the first place they'd be almost as retarded. so, yes.

[bdc30 0]

If it were me and I had only the low, even if it were the nuts, I'd be scared shitless of getting quartered in this spot, let alone if I had no high and a non-nut low, that's why I shoveled it.I was SHOCKED when he called and rolled over a set of 6's with a definitely non-nut low (but it was better than mine, so we split) I'll find the exact hand when I get home from work, but it certainly wasn't A2 and I was absolutely amazed that he'd called my shove.I could be proven to be wrong, but he may have had 2 3 for low.What do we think of villains play here, assuming he had exactly 2 3 6 6 ?--edit-- here's the full HHPOKERSTARS GAME #9765270203: OMAHA HI/LO POT LIMIT ($3/$6) - 2007/05/05 - 17:32:51 (ET)Table 'Polydoros IV' 9-max Seat #9 is the buttonSeat 1: SSSHIP_IT ($917.25 in chips) Seat 2: bdcfcp ($678 in chips) Seat 3: the taj kid ($406.50 in chips) Seat 4: luetch1 ($979.15 in chips) Seat 5: sprok ($231 in chips) Seat 7: ihatecake ($1556.55 in chips) Seat 8: georges747 ($171.90 in chips) Seat 9: Tim'sQTpie ($492 in chips) SSSHIP_IT: posts small blind $3bdcfcp: posts big blind $6*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to bdcfcp [2c 8d Td 7h]The Brainiac has returnedthe taj kid: folds luetch1: calls $6sprok: folds ihatecake: calls $6georges747: folds Tim'sQTpie: folds SSSHIP_IT: folds bdcfcp: checks *** FLOP *** [5d 6c 9c]bdcfcp: bets $18luetch1: folds ihatecake: raises $55.95 to $73.95bdcfcp: calls $55.95*** TURN *** [5d 6c 9c] [7s]bdcfcp: checks ihatecake: bets $165.90bdcfcp: calls $165.90*** RIVER *** [5d 6c 9c 7s] [Js]bdcfcp: bets $432.15 and is all-inihatecake: calls $432.15*** SHOW DOWN ***bdcfcp: shows [2c 8d Td 7h] (HI: a straight, Seven to Jack; LO: 8,7,6,5,2)ihatecake: shows [3s 2h 6d 6h] (HI: three of a kind, Sixes; LO: 7,6,5,3,2)bdcfcp collected $681 from potihatecake collected $681 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $1365 | Rake $3 Board [5d 6c 9c 7s Js]Seat 1: SSSHIP_IT (small blind) folded before FlopSeat 2: bdcfcp (big blind) showed [2c 8d Td 7h] and won ($681) with HI: a straight, Seven to Jack; LO: 8,7,6,5,2Seat 3: the taj kid folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 4: luetch1 folded on the FlopSeat 5: sprok folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 7: ihatecake showed [3s 2h 6d 6h] and won ($681) with HI: three of a kind, Sixes; LO: 7,6,5,3,2Seat 8: georges747 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 9: Tim'sQTpie (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Chamonyx 0]

Villain`s play is fine (he is a pretty solid player btw).He probably puts you on a flush draw with a low, given your flop play, and when you check the turn, he probably downgrades your low, confirmed by your flat call (although i would be slightly concerned by A34 here).With no club on the river, he probably feels good for half (you need A34 or a 4 card hand to scoop) and so calling is fine - although he has to be nervous.

[TheGameKat 0]

Could someone opine on Hero's best line if this were limit rather than pot limit?

[checkymcfold 0]

Could someone opine on Hero's best line if this were limit rather than pot limit?

normally i'd bet out here for info in limit, but there are so many cards we don't like after a peeled or raised flop that i might take a passive flop, aggro safe turn line in limit as well.

[fleung22 1]

normally i'd bet out here for info in limit, but there are so many cards we don't like after a peeled or raised flop that i might take a passive flop, aggro safe turn line in limit as well.

I find it ironic that checky's writing about pot control