13 replies to this topic

[jmbreslin]

I apologize in advance if this is in violation of the posting guidelines, but I just had to share this hand from my micro SnG on Stars tonight. The kind of hand we all dream of...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG (t1310)
UTG+1 (t740)
MP1 (t2005)
Hero (t1475)
CO (t1425)
Button (t1545)
SB (t1570)
BB (t3430)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, T.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, Hero calls t30, 3 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (t135) T, K, K (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t135) 2 (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets t30, BB folds, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30.

River: (t225) 9 (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets t210, Hero raises to t1415, UTG+1 calls t680 (All-In), MP1 calls t1205.

Final Pot: t3735

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has Jc Jd (flush, king high).
MP1 has Ad 9c (flush, ace high).
Hero has Kh Th (full house, kings full of tens).
Outcome: Hero wins t3735.

[Zach6668]

To give this some strategic perspective:

I don't know if this is personal preference, or what, but I would almost always bet the flop. Like 100% of the time after it checks to you. You want to build a pot. It's not like flush draws are going to fold, hell, pocket pairs might peel, a ten, etc. If you're lucky, you get raised by another king, etc. So many good things happen when you bet.

I really actually hate it when I see people flop monsters and check the flop, especially (and this doesn't apply on this hand), but in spots where they would c-bet 100% of the time.

[tskillz187]

I wish poker was new to me so this sort of thing would excite me.

Sigh...oh the good ol days.

[ramenandeggs]

where's the "i hate minimum bets" thread?

I don't know if this is a matter of style or not, but I bet the flop to look like I'm protecting my hand from a flush and slow down when the flush comes. Hopefully, someone hits a flush and tries to get value out of their hand when you pretend to control the pot, which will in turn make it easier for you to get value out of yours. Basically, you have a monster so try to inflate the pot. For the reasons that you can't bluff in a 4 handed pot, you don't need to slowplay in one because someone hit something.

On the turn, bet closer to pot. No use of pretending or slowplaying anymore, the flush got there, the straight draw will not likely draw. It's time to find out if anyone hit and is willing to pay for their second/third best hands and hit it hard and fast.

As played, I'm fine with the river. If he's willing to bet pot on a paired 4 flush board I think you'll get paid a lot of times by pushing.

[pokerfan1080]

I used to slow play hands alot in the past. But, that started to bite me really bad so I've gone away from the slow play quite a bit.

This would be a good candidate for a slow play but I'd still lead the flop here to try and build a pot from drawing hands.

I want all my chips in this pot by the river, which you did accomplish, but I'd Bet 1/2 pot on flop, 1/2 to 3/4 pot on turn, get the rest in by the river.

[SCS]

I don't hate the flop check, but I normally bet.

I bet more than $30 on the turn though. The flush card hit, and you figure it helped at least one of your opponents, so bet more here, since you'll get called. River looks good.

[jmbreslin]

I didn't bet the flop because I really didn't want to scare people away. I wanted to make it look like I was just as afraid of that flop as everyone else. Hindsight is 20/20, but notice that neither of my opponents on the river were holding 2 diamonds, which means a decent flop bet might have scared both of them away (although I probably would have gotten action from the guy holding JJ).

As for the minbet, keep in mind this was a micro SnG. Minbets are quite common at this level of play as scared bets - "I have a hand I want to bet but I'm afraid to risk too much." My minbet was partly to "build" the pot and partly to feign fear in the hopes of getting at least one of my opponents to play back at me. As it turned out the river card was vital as it completed the flush for both my opponents. Without that card, there's no way I would have gotten as much action on the river as I did.

I think a 1/2 pot bet on the flop and a 3/4 bet on the turn, as pokerfan suggests, wouldn't have gotten me very far. I probably would have ended up with only the JJ opponent on the turn, and I don't know how much more action I would have gotten from him with a decent-sized turn bet.

[Willing 2 Die]

To give this some strategic perspective:

I don't know if this is personal preference, or what, but I would almost always bet the flop. Like 100% of the time after it checks to you. You want to build a pot. It's not like flush draws are going to fold, hell, pocket pairs might peel, a ten, etc. If you're lucky, you get raised by another king, etc. So many good things happen when you bet.

I really actually hate it when I see people flop monsters and check the flop, especially (and this doesn't apply on this hand), but in spots where they would c-bet 100% of the time.

if he bets the flop, he's not going to get any action at all, unless Villian was stupid enough to call with A9 after the flop which i doubt he would have.

I think you played it well, Jm. good hand

[Zach6668]

if he bets the flop, he's not going to get any action at all, unless Villian was stupid enough to call with A9 after the flop which i doubt he would have.

Hi.

Thanks for providing your completely results-based analysis.

[Willing 2 Die]

Hi.

Thanks for providing your completely results-based analysis.

so, for this particular hand, how is the OP going to get any money at all from his opponents if he bets?

For tournaments, If you flop the nuts, and are betting it 100% of the time after the flop, then i can guarantee you that you are not getting full value for your hand most of the time.

If this were a cash game, no doubt you should bet. But we're talking tournaments, the goal is to accrue, not scare everybody away.

[Zach6668]

so, for this particular hand, how is the OP going to get any money at all from his opponents if he bets?

For tournaments, If you flop the nuts, and are betting it 100% of the time after the flop, then i can guarantee you that you are not getting full value for your hand most of the time.

If this were a cash game, no doubt you should bet. But we're talking tournaments, the goal is to accrue, not scare everybody away.

Are you saying the goal in cash games is to scare everyone away?

Look, you're being COMPLETELY biased by results. If someone had K9, you would be saying he should have bet the flop to get max value. What the villains had in this particular hand does not matter. We didn't know what they had when it was our turn to act on the flop.

I didn't say I was betting the nuts 100% of the time, but I did provide numerous reasons as to why I was betting it this time.

[copernicus]

Are you saying the goal in cash games is to scare everyone away?

Look, you're being COMPLETELY biased by results. If someone had K9, you would be saying he should have bet the flop to get max value. What the villains had in this particular hand does not matter. We didn't know what they had when it was our turn to act on the flop.

I didn't say I was betting the nuts 100% of the time, but I did provide numerous reasons as to why I was betting it this time.

I agree. If you check this hand on the flop it is going to look totally strange when you wake up later and small/non-diamonds fall, and is going to slow action way down when a diamond hits. If the full house was 7s over 3s (I had one of those the other night lol) you can more safely check because when overcards come (and hopefully hit the opponents hard) you will get some action. That said, I rarely slowplay a hand, at least at a table Ive been at for a while. Its like the episode on trapping on the Howard Lederer/Full Tilt show (forget the name of it now). Gus Hansen says he doesnt really know how to slowplay, and everyone else commented that his style is naturally trapping without slowplaying because he's so aggressive that when he has a monster he can continue to bet it aggressively and weaker hands will call expecting a "gus" hand. Also checking from him, at least in position, would telegraph a monster. My image isnt that LAG, but anyone awake would still be suspicious.

[XXEddie]

Are you saying the goal in cash games is to scare everyone away?

Look, you're being COMPLETELY biased by results. If someone had K9, you would be saying he should have bet the flop to get max value. What the villains had in this particular hand does not matter. We didn't know what they had when it was our turn to act on the flop.

I didn't say I was betting the nuts 100% of the time, but I did provide numerous reasons as to why I was betting it this time.

QFT

I definately bet like 60 on the flop and make a bigger flop bet, river plays itself.

Also, OP, dont post results, even in white(or grey..whatever)

[RISEorFall]

so, for this particular hand, how is the OP going to get any money at all from his opponents if he bets?

For tournaments, If you flop the nuts, and are betting it 100% of the time after the flop, then i can guarantee you that you are not getting full value for your hand most of the time.

If this were a cash game, no doubt you should bet. But we're talking tournaments, the goal is to accrue, not scare everybody away.

so.....youre advocating accumulating chips by not betting? how exactly is that supposed to work?

tons of hands that people will limp a lot call this flop, if not raise....

QJ
QT
JT
KJ
T9
T8
Kx
pocket pairs