20 replies to this topic

[Worm109]

Bodog 8k gtd

I had just hit a rush of cards in the last 5 minutes to jump from shortstack to chip leader with 11 left. My table is 6 handed. Villain had been playing very solid, not overly aggressive, and i hadnt seen him make any bad plays up to this point.

Hero 92k
Villain 76k

Blinds are 2k-4k with an ante
Hero dealt A 9 in the CO
Folded to Hero, who raises to 12k
Villain calls on the button
Blinds fold

Flop (32k)
9 8 2

Hero leads out for 22k, Villain pushes for 64k, Hero???

I know this looks like a standard call here....but really, what range of hands can we put the villain on....AA-88, any 2 overcards with a fd, or complete air, but i doubt hes doing this with nothing....if we call and win we have 170k and a massive chip lead with 10 left...if we call and lose we have 16k left and are in desperation mode...folding will leave us with 58k, which is still above the avg.....i need to call 42k to win 118k....so what do you think...would folding here be too weak?

[cubbybri]

With the read you have on villain, I say that you must fold.

I'm thinking the same range as you so at best you are ahead by a smidge. If behind you have few outs, fewer if he has a set of eights.

I would fold due to respecting on my opponent.

[jmbreslin]

Any info on how he has played pocket pairs previously? Have you seen him trap with a set?

[Worm109]

Any info on how he has played pocket pairs previously? Have you seen him trap with a set?

no...there has been very minimal post flop play going on since the avg stack only had around 10 or 11 BBs....he just seemed solid, stealing at the right times and not playing huge pots

[copernicus]

I fold this preflop with the big stack to my left. A9 is not a hand I want to go to war with.

[Worm109]

I fold this preflop with the big stack to my left. A9 is not a hand I want to go to war with.

you fold A9 when its 6 handed, we are in the cutoff with the chip lead, there is a ton of money in the pot pf, and we are almost on the final table bubble??? im trying to get chips here, not fold my way to a final table

[copernicus]

you fold A9 when its 6 handed, we are in the cutoff with the chip lead, there is a ton of money in the pot pf, and we are almost on the final table bubble??? im trying to get chips here, not fold my way to a final table

Theres only blinds in the pot before hero raises. Yes, I fold A9 with the other big stack to my left. The number of hands is irrelevant, its folded around to the CO, so no matter how many started its 4 handed now. When it goes to the final table hopefully he isnt to your left any longer. Its not a matter of folding to the FT for the money, its a matter of not battling with a mediocre hand out of position to the one player who can hurt you.

[cubbybri]

Big stack or not, I don't think I could get away from opening this hand preflop unless I know villain has a record of making calls with position. If I know he usually raises or folds in this situation, I take a stab.

[mkeller3086]

Theres only blinds in the pot before hero raises. Yes, I fold A9 with the other big stack to my left. The number of hands is irrelevant, its folded around to the CO, so no matter how many started its 4 handed now. When it goes to the final table hopefully he isnt to your left any longer. Its not a matter of folding to the FT for the money, its a matter of not battling with a mediocre hand out of position to the one player who can hurt you.

could you give your range of raising hands here based on the scenario presented?

[loxo]

Big stack or not, I don't think I could get away from opening this hand preflop unless I know villain has a record of making calls with position. If I know he usually raises or folds in this situation, I take a stab.

Ok you want to be aggressive preflop and steal some blinds which is fine if the table texture is ok. (I totally understand the fold line too) That being said I don't think we have to raise as much as we have here. If we are at the kind of table that regulary plays back at the chip leader then we have to reevaluate. At this stage of the tourny can we not raise to around 9k preflop and try to keep the pot a little smaller? Then our flop bet becomes smaller and I think the decisions become easier.

[YBravo]

Cop's fold line is all about keeping yourself out of trouble. I mean, you got a nine high flop with A-9 and you're not sure what to do. (I call by the way, but I'm a Grandmaster-level POW).

Take a look at PMJackson's PXF Hand History in the stickied thread at the top. He makes a lot of folds of hands like these. In fact I'd probably subtitle that HH "How to keep yourself out of trouble."

[cubbybri]

Ok you want to be aggressive preflop and steal some blinds which is fine if the table texture is ok. (I totally understand the fold line too) That being said I don't think we have to raise as much as we have here. If we are at the kind of table that regulary plays back at the chip leader then we have to reevaluate. At this stage of the tourny can we not raise to around 9k preflop and try to keep the pot a little smaller? Then our flop bet becomes smaller and I think the decisions become easier.

I can see this, cool. At this point, I want chips. If I know I'm unlikely to be played back, I steal.

I do like the don't get into trouble line, I do not like A9 but I could not get away from raising most of the time if table texture is known and exploitable.

[copernicus]

could you give your range of raising hands here based on the scenario presented?

AJ+, 88+

[Kestral123]

Folding A9 when you are the chip leader and you are in the cutoff and six-handed is way too weak tight. You have to remember that the guy on your left doesn't want to get into a confrontation with you any more than you with him, and maybe less so. You have to open this with a raise. You have a big stack and this is how you use it.

The key to this hand is being able to lay it down when you DO get into trouble. When he shoves your flop bet, you are either tied, beat, or only very slightly ahead. Get out of dodge here. But preflop, folding this is a mistake in this situation.

As an aside, I would have led into him for only half the pot on the flop, because (1) it will have the same effect here as your 22k bet, and (2) if he gives me any action at all I'm likely done with the hand. This is not a case where you are trying to protect your hand, you are trying to win the pot or get out of it. So, save the extra 6k.

[throwemaway]

Getting 2.8 to 1 here, I'm not folding..The chances of a draw, somethng like J10 or clubs is too great..I also open it preflop as well like you did

[Kestral123]

Getting 2.8 to 1 here, I'm not folding..The chances of a draw, somethng like J10 or clubs is too great..I also open it preflop as well like you did

You have to factor the impact on your stack size too. Unless you are clearly ahead of his range, you can't afford to gamble this much of his stack. I do not think you are clearly ahead of his range. He could VERY easily have a set, two pair, or a big draw. Against JT, you are basically coinflipping, or he may even be slightly ahead. Against clubs, if he has a live over card you are only slightly ahead. If either if you were shorter stacked, then this would be an easy play. But here, you have to toss it when he shoves, even with the 2.8:1, because you are giving up too much tourney equity by playing just the pot odds.

Maybe one of the math guys can break this down further.

[cdipierr]

I usually think Copernicus is too weak on these situations, but in this instance, A9 is a fold preflop IMHO. Sure, we hit good here, but when we make that raise and whiff, it's really hard to follow through because anyone calling us is calling with a better hand preflop. There's nearly 0 chance that the button, SB, or BB are calling with something we have dominated.

As played, I *think* I fold to the raise because I think TT is too likely here. It sort of fits the action well (a lot of folks won't reraise PF with TT).

[tripdeuces]

I wouldn't say a hand range for opening is neccessary in this spot being the chip leader. 6 handed ill open with 3 2 if the blinds have average stacks. That being said its close either way.

If you had been raising alot previously ( say 2 hands in a row before this you won the blinds) it might still be a fold. It's such a close spot i don't know if either a call or a fold is bad.

You should also look at it in reference to your stack if you fold. The button raise is mostly why i would call here just because if you think he is a solid player he could easily be making a move in position.

[YBravo]

Found a relevant point in Lindgren's book:

"Playing Conservative Against the Big Stack

Let's look at a hand example that would play very differently against a big stack than it would against a small or medium stack. I'm in middle position and open for a raise with A-9. A smallish stack calls me on the button. He's only got about the size of the current pot in his stack after he calls my raise. I'm first to act on the flop and it comes ace-high. I'm putting my opponent all-in. Either I'm going to move in myself, or I'm going to check with the intention of calling my opponent's all-in. The point is this guy is not "winning" this hand without putting all his chips in the pot. Even if I don't flop an ace, I'm going to set my opponent all-in a good chunk of the time--pretty much anytime big cards flop or I think the board just missed him.

Now, let's say instead that a big stack called my raise on the button. If the flop comes ace-high, I may well check and fold! If I don't check, but instead decide to bet, I'm almost certainly folding to a raise. If I check and call, I probably won't check and call a second time.

Why would I play so conservatively against the big stack? Well, first of all, I don't really have a hand. Top pair with a nine kicker is a monster against a short stack, but it's a piece of junk when both players have a lot of chips. Second, I'm out of position. I don't want to put myself into difficult decisions out of position when I can simply fold and go back to hammering away at the short stacks on the very next hand. Finally, the big stack probably has a hand if he's calling me. Most big stacks don't want to risk elimination in the tournament by running into another big stack and while I'll gladly risk elimination if it means increasing my chances to win the event, not everyone plays like I do. When you get down to it, no one likes to go broke--not even me. But if you can make everyone else believe you don't care about risking all your chips, you have an enormous advantage. That's what happens when another big stack enteres a pot with me: he's telling me he'll risk going broke with this hand. And that usually means I have to get out of the way."

So I think Lindgren is playing on the fly while Copernicus is planning ahead. Either way, pretty much the same idea.

[copernicus]

Found a relevant point in Lindgren's book:

"Playing Conservative Against the Big Stack

Let's look at a hand example that would play very differently against a big stack than it would against a small or medium stack. I'm in middle position and open for a raise with A-9. A smallish stack calls me on the button. He's only got about the size of the current pot in his stack after he calls my raise. I'm first to act on the flop and it comes ace-high. I'm putting my opponent all-in. Either I'm going to move in myself, or I'm going to check with the intention of calling my opponent's all-in. The point is this guy is not "winning" this hand without putting all his chips in the pot. Even if I don't flop an ace, I'm going to set my opponent all-in a good chunk of the time--pretty much anytime big cards flop or I think the board just missed him.

Now, let's say instead that a big stack called my raise on the button. If the flop comes ace-high, I may well check and fold! If I don't check, but instead decide to bet, I'm almost certainly folding to a raise. If I check and call, I probably won't check and call a second time.

Why would I play so conservatively against the big stack? Well, first of all, I don't really have a hand. Top pair with a nine kicker is a monster against a short stack, but it's a piece of junk when both players have a lot of chips. Second, I'm out of position. I don't want to put myself into difficult decisions out of position when I can simply fold and go back to hammering away at the short stacks on the very next hand. Finally, the big stack probably has a hand if he's calling me. Most big stacks don't want to risk elimination in the tournament by running into another big stack and while I'll gladly risk elimination if it means increasing my chances to win the event, not everyone plays like I do. When you get down to it, no one likes to go broke--not even me. But if you can make everyone else believe you don't care about risking all your chips, you have an enormous advantage. That's what happens when another big stack enteres a pot with me: he's telling me he'll risk going broke with this hand. And that usually means I have to get out of the way."

So I think Lindgren is playing on the fly while Copernicus is planning ahead. Either way, pretty much the same idea.

and just to bridge his quote to my post, if hes a player that you would consider check/fold against when you hit your hand, then calling in the first place is a waste.