17 replies to this topic

[Doug]

Played in a home game last night wasn't really that deepstack but was deeper than usual. Well newbie raised from mid position, this guy has no clue and has raised with all sorts of rags, guy next to him calls and I have KK, I know that a re-raise will leave me quite short stacked unless I push so I do and for the 5th time on the night he has a bigger pair than somebody. This time it's AA against me. Is there a general "rule" that early in a deepstack tournament you should let kings go or re-raise and if they push you should fold. I know that it depends on the players and all kinds of factors but lets take this hypothetical situation as an example.

It's about the 30th hand you know one guy will raise with a lot of hands and you have around 55xBB, He raises 6xBB from mid position and a person calls. You know your re-raise will be flat called, even by aces so if the flop doesn't contain an ace you will probably go broke anyway.

Basically is KK vs AA the hand you DO NOT want to run into when you have around 50xBB left in your stack or is it possible to fold it a number of times in this situation whilst not giving the pot away to a QQ,JJ or AK?

[simo_8ball]

Other than saying 'don't fold KK preflop', I don't know what you are asking. KK vs AA happens. It's a cooler. It sucks. Get over it.

[Doug]

Im asking is it common to fold KK in a deepstack tournament

[simo_8ball]

No. Don't fold KK preflop. You need a very good read that your opponent will shove with only AA in a given situation. If someone will shove any range like QQ+, AK you are way ahead. Even against an incredibly tight range of AA,KK, and AK suited, you are only a 2/1 dog.

Getting allin with KK vs AA isn't a big mistake. Folding KK vs QQ is a massive mistake.

[Zach6668]

Nice Bad Beat/Cooler post.

If you wnated to make a strategy post, you would have followed the rules and not included results.

Moving this.

[NocturnalRob]

Nice Bad Beat/Cooler post.

If you wnated to make a strategy post, you would have followed the rules and not included results.

Moving this.

Zach crushes your inaccurately placed post!! Muahahahaha...

OP, it happens. The only time I'd fold KK in a tournament setting is in a bubble situation--raise and a call or reraise, might be hard to play the KK. I dunno. That's just my style. And I'm sure someone will say, "Play to win," but whatever.

[SlackerInc]

Zach crushes your inaccurately placed post!! Muahahahaha...

OP, it happens. The only time I'd fold KK in a tournament setting is in a bubble situation--raise and a call or reraise, might be hard to play the KK. I dunno. That's just my style. And I'm sure someone will say, "Play to win," but whatever.

I wouldn't fold it in a bubble situation unless it was a satellite where I was pretty much guaranteed to finish "in the money" and all the prizes are equal. There, I like Arnold Snyder's advice in PTF: "I'd throw away pocket aces. Why risk a suckout when I am already assured of a win? I'd let the more desperate players--the players who know they're on the edge of extinction--grapple for position with each other. Don't bother me, I'm meditating."

[Doug]

Zach's on a power trip again then, this isn't a bad beat I'm asking for advice and I am beginning to agree with the people who question Zach's moderatering powers.

[RISEorFall]

Zach's on a power trip again then, this isn't a bad beat I'm asking for advice and I am beginning to agree with the people who question Zach's moderatering powers.

whatever.
"I had pocket Kings and a guy who has no idea what he's doing raised again, because he's been raising all kinds of crap, and this time he had pocket Aces should I have folded?"

of course not. nobody cares.

Z-A-C-H goooooooo Zach!

[Zach6668]

Zach's on a power trip again then, this isn't a bad beat I'm asking for advice and I am beginning to agree with the people who question Zach's moderatering powers.

EL OH EL.

Who has questioned my moderating?

I've said 100 times if there are issues, to PM me.

I've yet to receive one PM.

I move posts that don't follow the rules. If you don't like it, don't come.

I saw your post in GenPoker about pair vs pair. You're obviously very new to poker and don't understand that KK into AA is a common occurrence. Get used to it.

And LMAO at my power trip.

You're right about one thing. This isn't a bad beat. It's a cooler.

[Doug]

I don't think this site is the 2+2 forum but when i next post in one of the forums you moderate in please don't reply. If people have an issue about your moderating they arn't going to pm you they would pm the governator or another admin. What you're suggesting is ridiculous, please don't reply to any more of my posts.

[simo_8ball]

I don't think this site is the 2+2 forum but when i next post in one of the forums you moderate in please don't reply. If people have an issue about your moderating they arn't going to pm you they would pm the governator or another admin. What you're suggesting is ridiculous, please don't reply to any more of my posts.

Zach's a good guy, and a good contributor to strat. It is because of his all round demeanour and contribution that he was given mod status. Don't take it personally.

That said, I do think that moving this thread immediately to BBF was a little uncalled for because it has (had?) the potential to open up a discussion about how deep you might need to be to fold big hands preflop. For the most part, you shouldn't fold KK preflop in a tournament. KK vs AA happens and there is no profitable way of getting away from it.

[Doug]

He is not a good guy, his "advice" has been destructive. There are plenty of other topics in his hunting grounds which don't abide by his rules which have been left alone, I have been targeted for no reason. I do not know how you can possibly post results if the whole idea of the topic was about Kings Vs Aces. I had to use a specific example to show that was what happened. It wouldn't have worked if I just said i got Dealt KK, Guess what happened next? because he could have absolutely any hand. The point of the topic was to say is it really feasable to get away from kings even if you are fairly deepstacked but that seems to have been ignored and what has been focussed on is "oh you have another bad beat story, well I don't really care", this is not a bad beat story or even a cooler, your moderating sucks and please don't give me any more of your so called "advice" because it is neither appreciated nor wanted Zach.

[simo_8ball]

He is not a good guy, his "advice" has been destructive. There are plenty of other topics in his hunting grounds which don't abide by his rules which have been left alone, I have been targeted for no reason. I do not know how you can possibly post results if the whole idea of the topic was about Kings Vs Aces. I had to use a specific example to show that was what happened. It wouldn't have worked if I just said i got Dealt KK, Guess what happened next? because he could have absolutely any hand. The point of the topic was to say is it really feasable to get away from kings even if you are fairly deepstacked but that seems to have been ignored and what has been focussed on is "oh you have another bad beat story, well I don't really care", this is not a bad beat story or even a cooler, your moderating sucks and please don't give me any more of your so called "advice" because it is neither appreciated nor wanted Zach.

I agree that this thread should not have been moved. However, you may not realise how often threads are posted where we see KK losing to AA and the poster says 'could I get away from this?'
Surely you understand that after the nth time of seeing it, it becomes tiresome. Usually they are accompanied by either an unconverted hand history or a story about a home game with 10xbb stacks. Most AA vs KK threads just shouldn't be in strat. At a glance, this thread appeared to be the same, but I agree that moving it here was a rash decision by Zach, and his posts in this thread have been poorly thought out. In a normal AA vs KK thread these comments would be justified (I trust you would agree with this). I again ask you not to take it personally, and to accept it as an isolated case of poor judgement.

[XXEddie]

Youre kidding, Right?

seriously, this is what you are saying.

'Should I fold KK against some donk who raises with crappy hands and has no idea what he is doing'

answer is in the question.

Like Zach said, your this is a cooler/bad beat post, then happen, move on

[simo_8ball]

Youre kidding, Right?

seriously, this is what you are saying.

'Should I fold KK against some donk who raises with crappy hands and has no idea what he is doing'

answer is in the question.

Like Zach said, your this is a cooler/bad beat post, then happen, move on

Actually, I think he is trying to ask a more general question (or at least I think he is) - How deep do you need to be before you can fold KK?

[XXEddie]

Actually, I think he is trying to ask a more general question (or at least I think he is) - How deep do you need to be before you can fold KK?

like first hand of the Main Event deep

[simo_8ball]

like first hand of the Main Event deep

In a multiway pot you don't need to be that deep. There are situations (and I don't mean ridiculous ones) where you can fold KK being <60bb deep IMO.

/shrug


EDIT: The more I think about it, the more unlikely those situations seem. I've never folded KK preflop in a tournament, and I don't know many people who have. Ironically the one time I felt I should have folded, I was still getting 3:1 odds and I spiked a K to win.