19 replies to this topic

[Ice_W0lf]

I just got moved to this table so no reads, I had been limping a lot pots preflop...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

SB (t2460)
BB (t3042)
UTG (t4260)
UTG+1 (t5023)
MP1 (t3845)
Hero (t4875)
CO (t845)
Button (t2810)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K , Q .
2 folds, MP1 calls t100, Hero calls t100, 3 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (t350) Q , 9 , K (3 players)
BB bets t500, MP1 folds, Hero ?

[Zach6668]

I raise preflop, and I certainly raise this flop.

[ramenandeggs]

I'm fine with preflop limp here but you have to raise the flop here to maybe 1500-2000. You have to protect your hand on this straight + flush heavy board, there are lots of cards you don't want to see on the turn. Without reads, you can't be sure of what his flop overbet means so you have to take the straightforward approach and find out how strong he is.

[tripdeuces]

Raise flop. Limp pre is fine

[NEtwowilldo]

Easy shove.

[kkot]

Easy shove.

Isn't that a little much?

I'm raising to at least 1500.

[NEtwowilldo]

The BB only has like 2400 behind. Any raise commits his whole stack, and we are definitely not folding if he comes back over the top. May as well make a bet if you're prepared to call it.

[kkot]

Doesn't this fold a lot of worse hands?

Aren't we giving up value by overbetting like this?

[Zach6668]

Yeah, I'm with kkot, I don't buy into that philosophy, "if you're gonna call it, bet it".

If I'm going to call it, I want action from lesser hands, so I don't mind him making a move on me, instead of blasting him out of the pot.

[kkot]

I don't buy into that philosophy, "if you're gonna call it, bet it".

There's certainly a time and place for that, I just don't think this is it.

[Zach6668]

There's certainly a time and place for that, I just don't think this is it.

Well ya, but I mean in general. Absolutes don't have a place in poker.

[copernicus]

Another hand where you cant price out the big draw, villain has implied odds for a 10 outer, and you dont have much edge over a 9 outer, so he isnt folding if he has the flush draw. If he has gut straight draw hes already priced himself out.

If he doesnt have any draw you are WA to AK or AQ or WB to a set.

Everything here says call and reevaluate on the turn.

[jmbreslin]

Yeah, but this is a $1.10 tourney. Lots of players at this level will bet and call with hands like top and middle pair in this situation. Although lots of hands he would be playing with TP or MP also give him drawing outs (KJ, KT, QJ). You could also be up against K9 or Q9 too. Once again I find myself agreeing with cop's cautious approach here given how deep Hero could find himself on the turn.

[rog]

The BB only has like 2400 behind. Any raise commits his whole stack, and we are definitely not folding if he comes back over the top. May as well make a bet if you're prepared to call it.

I'm with Zach and kkot. As I understand it, the reasoning behind "make a bet if you're prepared to call it" is that if you're willing to get your chips in anyway, it's better to gain some fold equity against better hands by making the bet. The reason it doesn't apply here is we have top 2. Nobody is folding a better hand than top 2, so there is no fold equity against better hands. Top pair or middle pair might call a reasonable bet, and continue drawing thin. A flush draw might re-shove for fold equity. There's all sorts of good that can come from easing up here. I call here and get all in on a brick turn. I don't know what I do if one of the draws completes.

[melaskins]

I'm with Zach and kkot. As I understand it, the reasoning behind "make a bet if you're prepared to call it" is that if you're willing to get your chips in anyway, it's better to gain some fold equity against better hands by making the bet. The reason it doesn't apply here is we have top 2. Nobody is folding a better hand than top 2, so there is no fold equity against better hands. Top pair or middle pair might call a reasonable bet, and continue drawing thin. A flush draw might re-shove for fold equity. There's all sorts of good that can come from easing up here. I call here and get all in on a brick turn. I don't know what I do if one of the draws completes.

I hesitate to inteject here based on the fact that I am such a newbie at poker. But I will say this, one thing that I have noticed in the tournies is that most players seem to be willing to bet/call with a flush draw after the flop but if they don't complete they usually won't call another bet. So many times, you get beat by a set in these situations. With just getting to the table and not really having much information on the BB, I think it would probably be best to call here and see what happens on the turn. If he was on a stone cold bluff or if he has made bottom or middle pair, he will probably check the turn. If he is on a set or if the flush hits, he will bet more than 500. Then, as bad as you would hate too, you could put it down or put your 1.10 on the two pair. Whatever happened through the rest of the hand, I think Hero has gotten his 1.10 worth with the dilema and the dialogue from this thread.

[jmbreslin]

one thing that I have noticed in the tournies is that most players seem to be willing to bet/call with a flush draw after the flop but if they don't complete they usually won't call another bet.

Call yes, bet no. At the $1.10 level I rarely, rarely see players bet with draws. They love to chase them, but they don't bet them.

[ramenandeggs]

I play at the super microlevel on FTP and I see players bet their draws a lot. I've seen people bet gutshots (this one is actually a rarity I think) and that's a little frustrating when I'm trying to read them.

I understand the arguments for calling now and it does seem a lot better in terms of pot control since a lot of times if we don't fill up, our two pair is as good as one pair on this board. So in this hand, calling > raising > shoving yes?

[tripdeuces]

At this level tourney I am probably going broke here. Too often do you see people get married to K3(pinch?pinch?) on this board.

[Ice_W0lf]

Hero raises to 1500... Villain shovels... Hero..?

[Zach6668]

Hero raises to 1500... Villain shovels... Hero..?

Instacalls.

Don't raise if you aren't prepared to call a shove for 1500 more.