26 replies to this topic

[melaskins]

Hey guys, I just started playing poker for money a few months ago. I play at UB and have read Sklansky's first book. I play mostly the 1 dollar sng's and occasionally a 5 dollar sng. I have recently started playing some of the larger tournies. I hate the cash games and usually only lose my coins in them. I money in the sng's about 3 out of 5 times that I play. I played in a live free tournament this past weekend in OK. I misplayed pocket Kings trying to take a ladies chips and she beat me with two pair(66, 77). Then in the money tournament, I misplayed AJs and got put out early. I think part of misplaying the AJs was that I was still thinking about the KK debacle. But I came away from that experience thinking there had to be some sort of formula or at least practical way of betting for typical hands in typical situations. Have you guys got any advice?I am a typical tight newbie poker player. I generally play fairly tight but I am not afraid to bluff. I find that I am at my best when I am only playing about 20% of the hands. If I have a hand that I like, I will generally raise preflop and try to chase out pretenders. Usually twice or three times the bb.In the situation this past weekend with the K's, we were three handed and I was chip leader with about 4000 in chips and my opponent in the hand had about 3000. The blinds were 100 and 200 and I was sb. I called the bb preflop. The flop came As Qs 6h. I bet 400 thinking I would find out if my opponent had an A in the hole. She just called. The turn was a 2d and I checked. She checked behind me.(That confused me) The river was a 7s and I bet 800. My opponent went all in. I thought about it for a bit and really felt she was bluffing and that I had the best hand. I called and she turns over the 6 and 7. Later, in the money tourney, I had not been getting any playable hands through about 25 hands. I get AJ suited in the small blind and announced a raise to 400. The bb was 200 and called the other 200. A crazy lady at the table went all in and it only cost me like another 100 for her bet. The flop was J Q 3 but missed my suit. I bet 500 of my remaining 950. And got called. At that point, I felt I was pot committed and put the rest of my 450 in on the turn, just hoping for an A. I didn't get it and got put out with my opponent having KQ in the hole and the crazy lady having AJ as well. Looking back, I should have kept up better with my chip count and not bet the 500 after the flop based on the Q hitting the board. Then when I got called I should have checked on the turn and cut my losses and just tried to make a comeback from being short stacked. That was the first live tourney that I had played and was really just wanting the experience of playing. I came away from that hand though, really disappointed that I put so much on a good hand that was second best. What would you guys have done and is there a general rule for that kind of hand?

[Naismith]

Welcome to the board. I hope you enjoy your time here. My biggest suggestion to you is to go to the tournament section of strategy. This is a cash game section, which you said you don't care for. There are a few of us (okay, just me) that are experts at both, but the tournament section will definitely bring you more help.My advice on the hand you said:Raise preflop, bet the turn.

[David_Nicoson]

melaskins, on Wednesday, April 25th, 2007, 12:07 AM, said:

Hey guys, I just started playing poker for money a few months ago. I play at UB and have read Sklansky's first book. I play mostly the 1 dollar sng's and occasionally a 5 dollar sng. I have recently started playing some of the larger tournies. I hate the cash games and usually only lose my coins in them.

Sklanksky's first book is Hold'em Poker, right? That's a book about limit cash games. You might check out Harrington on Hold'em .

[NEtwowilldo]

I guess Zach will put this in the tourney forum later or whatever.Welcome the Forum.With the KK hand, you definitely want to make a raise preflop. I usually go right around 2 1/2 times the BB late in tournaments. If you had made this raise, I'm assuming she would have folded and you would have won the pot, but let's assume you make it 500 to go, and she called.Now she has 2500 left and there is 1000 in the pot.Even though the ace is a scary card for you, I would still lead out for about 600. If she raises you, she is going to have to go all in and you can feel good about folding. If you show strength preflop, I usually continue to show strength no matter what comes out (continuation betting). If you check this scary card, an observant opponent will realize that you don't like the ace, figure out you have a pocket pair, and push you off your hand. This being said I like your bet on the flop. Don't overdo the continuation bet though, because an observant opponent will pick up on this as well, and just start reraising you if you bet at every single flop. Now her call could mean one of two things, particularly if she is a weaker player. I would assume it is either a spade flush draw, or an ace with a weak kicker and she doesn't want to commit a lot of chips with a marginal hand. Thus, it makes it difficult to continue with the hand out of position. Any bet basically commits you to the pot (2200 in the pot if you bet the 600 on the flop I mentioned, and she has only 1900 left), which sucks if she has the ace, but you don't want to check and give her a free shot at the flush either. Tough to say what I would have done. As for the river, a smaller bet is OK, (1200 in the pot, I'd bet about 600) because she might call with a Queen, and she will if she is a weak calling station type. This way you can find out if you're hand is good for a cheap price instead of checking and calling if she bets like 800 or 900. This is called a "blocker bet" or a "defensive bet". When she raises your defensive bet on the river, I think it's pretty clear that you're beat, and you should have folded. Unless she is on a stone cold, bluff which doesn't seem likely, especially from a weaker player (not sure how aggressive you read this lady to be).As for the AJ hand, you're right about that you should have kept better track of your chip stack. This is very important for tournament play, always know you're stack in relation to the size of the blinds. You started the hand with 1150, with the blinds at 100-200, giving you just under 6x the big blind. This is officiallly all in or fold mode. I start all in or fold mode around 10x the Big blind, and A J suited is a great hand to push with against one shortstack limper, and the Big blind who has two random cards. So there you should have gone all in pre flop, which you would have done with the best hand, and thus made the right decision.This brings me to my next point, which is something I see a lot of beginners doing wrong overall. When critiquing your play, don't be results oriented. People have honestly asked on this forum if they made the wrong play by getting it all in preflop with AK vs. A J, just because a Jack fell on the river, and other things like that. Remember there will be suckouts, and as long as you get your money in as a favorite that's all you can do. Just be honest with yourself, always look to improve, and don't think you're playing poorly just because you may have gotten unlucky. Conversely, if it seems like you're always getting unlucky, you probably need to look to improve. If you lose a hand, just look back and ask yourself what you could have done differently to avoid losing that pot. If you got it in with the best hand, and got unlucky, then don't worry about it, it happens. If you keep getting it in with the worst hand though, that's when you need to start rethinking everything altogether. It's good that you're just beginning and already reading Sklansky, participating in a forum, and critiquing your play with others. All of this kind of stuff is going keep you getting better and better over the years. Keep this up and you'll always improve.

[Zach6668]

NEtwowilldo, on Wednesday, April 25th, 2007, 12:55 AM, said:

I guess Zach will put this in the tourney forum later or whatever.

Yup :)Welcome to the forums, sir.

[melaskins]

Zach6668, on Wednesday, April 25th, 2007, 9:23 AM, said:

Yup :)Welcome to the forums, sir.

Zach6668, on Wednesday, April 25th, 2007, 9:23 AM, said:

Yup :)Welcome to the forums, sir.

Thanks for the redirection on the boards. I have been looking for a good forum and when I saw Negreanu on here and read one of his blogs on faith, I decided to land here.

NEtwowilldo, on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007, 11:55 PM, said:

I guess Zach will put this in the tourney forum later or whatever.Welcome the Forum.With the KK hand, you definitely want to make a raise preflop. I usually go right around 2 1/2 times the BB late in tournaments. If you had made this raise, I'm assuming she would have folded and you would have won the pot, but let's assume you make it 500 to go, and she called.Now she has 2500 left and there is 1000 in the pot.Even though the ace is a scary card for you, I would still lead out for about 600. If she raises you, she is going to have to go all in and you can feel good about folding. If you show strength preflop, I usually continue to show strength no matter what comes out (continuation betting). If you check this scary card, an observant opponent will realize that you don't like the ace, figure out you have a pocket pair, and push you off your hand. This being said I like your bet on the flop. Don't overdo the continuation bet though, because an observant opponent will pick up on this as well, and just start reraising you if you bet at every single flop. Now her call could mean one of two things, particularly if she is a weaker player. I would assume it is either a spade flush draw, or an ace with a weak kicker and she doesn't want to commit a lot of chips with a marginal hand. Thus, it makes it difficult to continue with the hand out of position. Any bet basically commits you to the pot (2200 in the pot if you bet the 600 on the flop I mentioned, and she has only 1900 left), which sucks if she has the ace, but you don't want to check and give her a free shot at the flush either. Tough to say what I would have done. As for the river, a smaller bet is OK, (1200 in the pot, I'd bet about 600) because she might call with a Queen, and she will if she is a weak calling station type. This way you can find out if you're hand is good for a cheap price instead of checking and calling if she bets like 800 or 900. This is called a "blocker bet" or a "defensive bet". When she raises your defensive bet on the river, I think it's pretty clear that you're beat, and you should have folded. Unless she is on a stone cold, bluff which doesn't seem likely, especially from a weaker player (not sure how aggressive you read this lady to be).

When she said "all in" I couldn't even really think about what she might have other than a flush. I didn't think she had an ace but I was just thinking so much about my own mistakes that I never considered anything else. Because it was a free tourney, the place was full of people that were making outlandish bets and calls with nothing. I really thought there was as good of a chance that she had nothing as there was that she had the flush. But mostly, since I was already qualified for the money tournament, I wanted to see what she had. If I hadn't called the all in and she hadn't shown, I would have regretted not calling and that probably would have messed with my head just as bad as misplaying the K's. In your opinion, where was my biggest mistake? Was it the call before the flop or the weaker bet after the flop, the check after the turn or the call of the all in?

NEtwowilldo, on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007, 11:55 PM, said:

As for the AJ hand, you're right about that you should have kept better track of your chip stack. This is very important for tournament play, always know you're stack in relation to the size of the blinds. You started the hand with 1150, with the blinds at 100-200, giving you just under 6x the big blind. This is officiallly all in or fold mode. I start all in or fold mode around 10x the Big blind, and A J suited is a great hand to push with against one shortstack limper, and the Big blind who has two random cards. So there you should have gone all in pre flop, which you would have done with the best hand, and thus made the right decision.This brings me to my next point, which is something I see a lot of beginners doing wrong overall. When critiquing your play, don't be results oriented. People have honestly asked on this forum if they made the wrong play by getting it all in preflop with AK vs. A J, just because a Jack fell on the river, and other things like that. Remember there will be suckouts, and as long as you get your money in as a favorite that's all you can do. Just be honest with yourself, always look to improve, and don't think you're playing poorly just because you may have gotten unlucky. Conversely, if it seems like you're always getting unlucky, you probably need to look to improve. If you lose a hand, just look back and ask yourself what you could have done differently to avoid losing that pot. If you got it in with the best hand, and got unlucky, then don't worry about it, it happens. If you keep getting it in with the worst hand though, that's when you need to start rethinking everything altogether. It's good that you're just beginning and already reading Sklansky, participating in a forum, and critiquing your play with others. All of this kind of stuff is going keep you getting better and better over the years. Keep this up and you'll always improve.

I do appreciate the compliment and words of encouragement. I have heard/read people say not to worry about results. That was really hard to comprehend without application. Honestly, I didn't go to that tournament to win. I realize that is a bad approach to take but I am only being honest about my approach to it. I really went to learn and play solid. I played pretty solid most of the time with a few mistakes. Obviously, one mistake can cost you your seat. Some of the things that I learned are pretty obvious to most of you guys. For instance, a couple of times I made the statement that I wanted to "call" a bet and then raise it. A dealer politely told me I just needed to say that I was raising it. I also learned that once you have chips in your hand and you cross the line on the table, your not really supposed to return any chips back to your stack. Finally, I learned that I would prefer to be playing with people that have their own money invested in the game as opposed to people that are the live equivalent to free players on the internet and destroy a game for people that are little more serious.Again, thanks for you guys' help.

[Zach6668]

Well, welcome. If you're looking for good strategy discussion, imo, this is the place. We also have good off-topic forums, and lots of other stuff.I just suggest you take a look at the Forum Posting Guidelines that are stickied at the top of each of the strategy forums if you're gonna post around here.Thanks, and I hope you enjoy your experience.

[copernicus]

Nets reply pretty much covers it.To respond to your last question, the bigger mistake with the KKs was not to raise preflop. You will be out of position for the hand and are much more vulnerable to the kind of slowplaying that you got caught by. In a blind vs blind situation with a strong hand I prefer a stronger raise to the suggested 2.5x the bb. That gives the bb calling odds with all kinds of junk hands, especially when youre coming out of a steal position. I prefer 3.5x the bb here, giving bb < 2:1.I assume by DS's first book you actually meant "Tournament Poker FAP", not the limit book. If not then read TPFAP, and the first two Harrington books. GL!___________________________________________________________________________________________________Bet with your head, not over it, unless youre betting on the Rangers to win the Cup, in which case mortgage the house!

[melaskins]

copernicus, on Wednesday, April 25th, 2007, 2:45 PM, said:

Nets reply pretty much covers it.To respond to your last question, the bigger mistake with the KKs was not to raise preflop. You will be out of position for the hand and are much more vulnerable to the kind of slowplaying that you got caught by. In a blind vs blind situation with a strong hand I prefer a stronger raise to the suggested 2.5x the bb. That gives the bb calling odds with all kinds of junk hands, especially when youre coming out of a steal position. I prefer 3.5x the bb here, giving bb < 2:1.I assume by DS's first book you actually meant "Tournament Poker FAP", not the limit book. If not then read TPFAP, and the first two Harrington books. GL!___________________________________________________________________________________________________Bet with your head, not over it, unless youre betting on the Rangers to win the Cup, in which case mortgage the house!

Thanks for the advice. No, I read the limit book. I bought it before I started playing the tourneys. Also, I go to the casino with my dad and he likes playing the limit games. I actually started playing just to spend with him and to get to know him. He had been gone for nearly 40 years and my neice just found him a couple of years ago. He moved back to our area, here in Arkansas and I found that about the only way that I was going to be able to develop a relationship with him was through poker. I started playing online for the elevated experience and exposure to various games and types of players. The book was a good starter book that was easy to read. Honestly, because I like Harrington's style, I almost bought his book. Today I ordered Negreanu's book.Honestly, thinking back, if I had raised preflop, she probably would have folded. Normally, I would raise preflop with that hand but like I say, I was guilty of trying steal her chips and got caught. One thing that I have not been doing and haven't thought about much is having a multiple of the blinds as a determining factor in my bets. I have been using an amount.

[copernicus]

melaskins, on Wednesday, April 25th, 2007, 4:09 PM, said:

Thanks for the advice. No, I read the limit book. I bought it before I started playing the tourneys. Also, I go to the casino with my dad and he likes playing the limit games. I actually started playing just to spend with him and to get to know him. He had been gone for nearly 40 years and my neice just found him a couple of years ago. He moved back to our area, here in Arkansas and I found that about the only way that I was going to be able to develop a relationship with him was through poker. I started playing online for the elevated experience and exposure to various games and types of players. The book was a good starter book that was easy to read. Honestly, because I like Harrington's style, I almost bought his book. Today I ordered Negreanu's book.Honestly, thinking back, if I had raised preflop, she probably would have folded. Normally, I would raise preflop with that hand but like I say, I was guilty of trying steal her chips and got caught. One thing that I have not been doing and haven't thought about much is having a multiple of the blinds as a determining factor in my bets. I have been using an amount.

Dont expect much from DNs book, and definitely dont waste any money on his video. It has nothing on "long ball" play that isnt in Sklansky and Harrington, and Erick Lindgrens book is much better for "small ball"

[Zach6668]

copernicus, on Wednesday, April 25th, 2007, 6:17 PM, said:

Dont expect much from DNs book, and definitely dont waste any money on his video. It has nothing on "long ball" play that isnt in Sklansky and Harrington, and Erick Lindgrens book is much better for "small ball"

lol, they sent me the DVD the other day... perk of the job or whatever... haven't watched it yet though... so you're saying I shouldn't?

[NEtwowilldo]

How'd you get such a sweet job?I wanna work for a poker company.

[Zach6668]

NEtwowilldo, on Wednesday, April 25th, 2007, 11:26 PM, said:

How'd you get such a sweet job?I wanna work for a poker company.

lol job = volunteering my time to moderate the fcp strat forums.

[copernicus]

Zach6668, on Wednesday, April 25th, 2007, 7:48 PM, said:

lol, they sent me the DVD the other day... perk of the job or whatever... haven't watched it yet though... so you're saying I shouldn't?

hey its free..whats 1/2 hour of your time. Advanced section = most annoying person in a poker video, ever

[NEtwowilldo]

Zach6668, on Wednesday, April 25th, 2007, 11:28 PM, said:

lol job = volunteering my time to moderate the fcp strat forums.

Lol man all that volunteer work I had to do in high school, f*ing rec programs and soup kitchens, I could have been working for FCP!!!Seriously though I figured you got paid, it seems like you spend a lot of time in here.

[Zach6668]

NEtwowilldo, on Wednesday, April 25th, 2007, 11:38 PM, said:

Lol man all that volunteer work I had to do in high school, f*ing rec programs and soup kitchens, I could have been working for FCP!!!Seriously though I figured you got paid, it seems like you spend a lot of time in here.

Intellectual stimulation is enough for me.Plus, I play poker for a "living", so I'm here anyways.Not much has changed overall since I became a mod, in terms of how much time I spend here, I just read more in this forum and others I normally wouldn't have. It actually gets me thinking about poker in a bit of a wider light, instead of always focussing on LHE.

[NEtwowilldo]

I figured you and DN had like monthly meetings about the site and stuff. Like you were work buddies or something. You work from home I take it?

[Zach6668]

NEtwowilldo, on Thursday, April 26th, 2007, 1:00 AM, said:

I figured you and DN had like monthly meetings about the site and stuff. Like you were work buddies or something. You work from home I take it?

lol, I've never talked to DN outside of the Hockey Forum, even though I have him on MSN (brag post? lol, although anyone in the hockey pool has him as well)I just lay on the couch all day and play poker/watch tv/read the forums.I just love this place, as it's pretty much been 100% responsible for turning me into a winning player, and a lot of the stuff in strat was being neglected by the other mods who just had too much to take care of in the busier sections (read: Gen Poker), so, anyways, I pretty much hinted that I'd love to mod the strat forums so I can move stuff to the right place, be the converter nazi, etc, and keep the place clean, and finally after a bunch of people agreed with me, they gave me the powers, lol. I also wanted to do a few things, but they're way too much work for me, at this point. For now, what I consider my "job", is to keep the forums clean, ensure everyone is at least attempting to follow the rules, and hopefully foster a great environment to learn and discuss strategy, and hopefully grow based on that. I'd really like to see the place develop into one of the premier strat forums on the net, although it'd be next to impossible to get to be close to 2p2 in terms of size.Anyways, that's just the summary, cuz I don't think you were around when I became the strat mod.

[NEtwowilldo]

Zach6668, on Thursday, April 26th, 2007, 1:17 AM, said:

lol, I've never talked to DN outside of the Hockey Forum, even though I have him on MSN (brag post? lol, although anyone in the hockey pool has him as well)I just lay on the couch all day and play poker/watch tv/read the forums.I just love this place, as it's pretty much been 100% responsible for turning me into a winning player, and a lot of the stuff in strat was being neglected by the other mods who just had too much to take care of in the busier sections (read: Gen Poker), so, anyways, I pretty much hinted that I'd love to mod the strat forums so I can move stuff to the right place, be the converter nazi, etc, and keep the place clean, and finally after a bunch of people agreed with me, they gave me the powers, lol. I also wanted to do a few things, but they're way too much work for me, at this point. For now, what I consider my "job", is to keep the forums clean, ensure everyone is at least attempting to follow the rules, and hopefully foster a great environment to learn and discuss strategy, and hopefully grow based on that. I'd really like to see the place develop into one of the premier strat forums on the net, although it'd be next to impossible to get to be close to 2p2 in terms of size.Anyways, that's just the summary, cuz I don't think you were around when I became the strat mod.

No you were the boss when I got here, lol.And personally I like a smaller strat community moreso than I would like a ginormous one like 2+2. Sounds like you have a pretty sweet life. I'm thinking about starting to build a big enough bankroll that I could live off of one day. I'm thinking about putting $500 on stars and seeing what I can do, because up until now, I've only have small sums of money on and offline (like $200 at the most), and I play 1-2 NL when I can afford it, just like every other recreational player in the world. I really want to start taking the game seriously, and managing my money better. Do you have aim? It would be nice to chat with someone who makes their living playing poker so that I know what it takes, and how to manage my money well, because I think BR management is one of the biggest reasons I haven't TP/MM yet, lol. My name is the same on AIM as it is here. I'm going to bed now, but if you want to PM me your AIM name, that would be cool.

[Zach6668]

NEtwowilldo, on Thursday, April 26th, 2007, 1:40 AM, said:

And personally I like a smaller strat community moreso than I would like a ginormous one like 2+2.

Actually, I agree with this 100%.I didn't really mean I wanted to get as big as 2p2, but a bit more traffic would be best for us, imo.