11 replies to this topic

[rgold79]

$3 Turbo SNG. BB is aggressive and not very good, and just lost a big pot. My raise in position was done purposefully knowing he was going to push any two from that spot, and I felt like I was likely to be in good shape with a lot of dead money from the limpers. He pushed as I thought he would and then the next two guys surprised me by just calling. Curious to see what you guys would do next here.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

Hero (t1285)
Button (t850)
SB (t3700)
BB (t595)
UTG (t4130)
UTG+1 (t1455)
MP1 (t1455)
MP2 (t1530)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J , T .
UTG calls t50, UTG+1 calls t50, 1 fold, MP2 calls t50, Hero raises to t200, 2 folds, BB raises to t595, UTG calls t545, UTG+1 calls t545, MP2 folds, Hero ???

[NEtwowilldo]

Getting a good price, see the flop IMO, but let me get this straight, you raised because you wanted the BB to come over top of you?? You know you only have Jack high right?

[rgold79]

let me get this straight, you raised because you wanted the BB to come over top of you?? You know you only have Jack high right?

Believe it or not I was expecting this to happen and was fine with it. I knew that the BB's pushing range was overly wide and therefore that in a heads up pot with the extra dead money I would have positive equity in the hand. I raised 4X the blind because if the BB didn't push I would still get to see the flop in position with a good speculative hand having taken command pre-flop, and if the BB did go ahead and push then the early limpers would be looking at a raise and then a push behind and would thus be more likely to fold. If I had just put the BB all in and he called, one of the limpers would now be getting good odds to call with his hand as well. Instead, now he has to worry about the possibility that I'll push behind him if he calls.

EDIT: At this point in the hand I was basically between calling and going to the flop or over pushing behind.

[Jdr999]

I hate committing about half my stack with J-10, even against a player on tilt. I feel it's way to much risk and look at the oods vs. a random hand with J-10s:

Can't copy from PokerStove (anyone know how), Js-10s against a random hand only has 57.528% equity, while any random two cards has 42.472% equity.
In other words, you have a 57.5% chance of winning the pot and having over 2000 chips. On the other hand, you will lose 42.4% of the time and be left with 690 chips with 25/50 blinds in a Turbo SNG.
Is an EV+ situation, but is not one I would take becuase I feel the risk outweights the rewards, and you can get 1/2 your stack in later which a much better than 57.5% equity.

As for calling after the other 2 cold-callers, you have to call becase of the massive pot odds.
If my math is correct you are getting over 5:1 on the call (50+50+50+50+200+595+545+545)= 2085, you have to call 395 more chips.
Also, lets put the two callers on this range of hands: 99-22,AJs-A9s,KJs+,QJs,AJo-ATo,KQ. (I'm assuming no one limped/called with 10's-A's, AQ+)

According to PokerStove, here is the equity of the hands:

Js-10s: 27.129%
Random: 18.18%
99-22,AJs-A9s,KJs+,QJs,AJo-ATo,KQ: 27.019%
99-22,AJs-A9s,KJs+,QJs,AJo-ATo,KQ: 27.086%

[jmbreslin]

I think you made a huge assumption here: that both the EP limpers would fold to BB's push. Given UTG's stack, he can easily call the push from BB without making much of a dent in his stack. And although there is the possibility that you could have pushed back, he also has you covered by a wide margin. He could call both pushes and lose and still have a decent-sized stack at the table.

Also, the blinds are still relatively low at this point. BB may be short-stacked and just lost a big pot, but he doesn't have to push yet...especially against someone who raised 4BB in front of him. So you made another big assumption, that BB would push against you in this situation with virtually any 2.

I think you got yourself into a real mess here.

[mk]

there is absolutely no reason to get this creative in a $3 turbo stt.

[copernicus]

150 isnt enough dead money from the limpers to raise to 200, anticipating a push to 595 and folds from the limpers. Youre committing yourself to 595 for 745 of their money, and not giving yourself nearly the implied odds for a J high (unless you think BB is going to push with worse than JT, an awful play with 3 in the pot already). You should just limp and evaluate what the other players do after a push to 595. If you get a caller then you might have the implied odds to play, though its probably still borderline, since the rest of the money is going into a dry side pot and its going to be tough to extract a lot unless the flop hits you both.

Alls well that ends well (PF anyway) when you get two callers and have huge odds. I dont know why you even have a question about what to do.

[rgold79]

there is absolutely no reason to get this creative in a $3 turbo stt.

Yeah, I slept on this hand and this is the first thing I said when I woke up this morning. The whole point of my playing these low buy ins is to try out some moves and see what happens.

[SpiderGuard]

Yeah, I slept on this hand and this is the first thing I said when I woke up this morning. The whole point of my playing these low buy ins is to try out some moves and see what happens.

Can I suggest that if you're trying out moves for higher buy-in tourneys, unfortunately there's no cheap way to do that? I can try out all the fancy moves in the world in a $0.50 tourney on AP, but the end result is always going to be "Villain calls with middle pair." That means nothing if I'm trying to generalize behavior to someone even at the $6 level (the big money stakes I play at)

[rgold79]

Can I suggest that if you're trying out moves for higher buy-in tourneys, unfortunately there's no cheap way to do that? I can try out all the fancy moves in the world in a $0.50 tourney on AP, but the end result is always going to be "Villain calls with middle pair." That means nothing if I'm trying to generalize behavior to someone even at the $6 level (the big money stakes I play at)

Not trying out moves as much internally looking for new approaches to hands in my head. It's just one of the tools I use for growth. Anyway, it wound up being a very interesting hand. Here's the whole thing below, thanks for everyone's input.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t1285)
Button (t850)
SB (t3700)
BB (t595)
UTG (t4130)
UTG+1 (t1455)
MP1 (t1455)
MP2 (t1530)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J , T .
UTG calls t50, UTG+1 calls t50, 1 fold, MP2 calls t50, Hero raises to t200, 2 folds, BB raises to t595, UTG calls t545, UTG+1 calls t545, MP2 folds, Hero raises to t1285, UTG calls t690, UTG+1 calls t690.

Flop: (t4525) 4 , K , Q (4 players)
UTG bets t200, UTG+1 calls t170 (All-In).

Turn: (t4895) 7 (4 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t4895) 4 (4 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t4895
Main Pot: t4865 (t4865), between UTG and UTG+1. > Pot won by UTG+1 (t4865).
Pot 2: t30 (t30), between Hero, BB and UTG. > Pot won by BB (t30).

Results in white below:
BB has 7d 7c (full house, sevens full of fours).
UTG has Th Jh (one pair, fours).
UTG+1 has Kh Ad (two pair, kings and fours).
Hero has Js Ts (flush, king high).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins t4865. BB wins t30.


EDIT: For some reason the results converted incorrectly. Should read:

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4865 Main pot 2455. Side pot-1 2070. Side pot-2 340. | Rake 0
Board [4h Ks Qs 7s 4s]
Seat 1: RGold79 showed [Js Ts] and won (2070) with a flush, King high
Seat 3: djjerry (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: wererich (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: SCARFACE_ALP (big blind) showed [7d 7c] and won (2455) with a full house, Sevens full of Fours
Seat 6: latinabarbie showed [Th Jh] and lost with a pair of Fours
Seat 7: Bella Rose1 showed [Kh Ad] and won (340) with two pair, Kings and Fours
Seat 8: mjnumb23 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Judasheart folded before Flop

[tskillz187]

I hope you took from the hand that you shouldn't do this. I love when I make a mistake and win and get to note not to do it again. That's the best.

[Jdr999]

You re-raise sucks so much. You are not getting the other players to fold, and J-10 isn't a hand with showdown value. Just spew. You got lucky to win the pot.