'mentoring' = -ev

[TR1N1TY 0]

After playing on a regular basis for over 5 years I've taken on a few pet project newbies just picking up the game of holdem, and I gotta tell you...what a disaster in 9 out 10 cases. Lemme tell you what happened to me recently...this really takes the cake.First lemme say its fun when you have the opportunity to 'mold' a rookie player and teach him your own personal strats and/or approach to the game. Generally when new players pick up the game, all they know is what they saw on TV and they won a few pots and wham...they have the poker bug....but in reality they are basically clueless fish. The fun part is when you get a hold of someone who is essentially a mega donk and have the chance to teach them some plays and educate them on the subtle nuances of the game of holdem and watch them progress as players. I'm sure many of you have taken on new players and taught them what you might have picked up in the way of strategy, and I think you'd agree its very satisfying....watching a 'student' excel and start to become a winning player. anyways...So for the last 6 months or so Ive been mentoring this kid....nicest kid you'd ever wanna talk to....enthusiastic, animated and eager to learn. But by the same token he has been reckless and easily distracted and seems to consider the game of poker to be another form of leisure...almost like a video game. Well, I take poker a little more seriously and after a while I was growing weary of repeating myself and watching him tank his roll over and over making beginner mistakes.So a few weeks ago he IM's me and says 'why am I losing man ? what am I doing wrong ? ' So I said basically that after 6 months of showing him what I know about poker he hadn't really been following the playbook I had given him and that he was still playing like a donk not respecting his bankroll...underestimating his opponents and thinking he can steamroll everyone who he plays a pot with. In short, he had learned a few basic plays I showed him, (he won a few 45 man turbos) and decided he knew it all...and then pretty much left the 'nest' and started losing again.So again he IMs me one day and says 'man WTF am I doing wrong ?? I'm losing bigtime....etc etc etc can you help me bro ?'I give him a detailed plan of attack on how to build his small roll...I sent him an Excel file designed to help him track his results and to stick to a game plan. He didn't have a very big roll just a few hundred dollars but the plan was designed to absorb variance and to key on small buy in 18 man tourneys to build his roll back up slowly. He was tilting off a ton of his money in cash games and quite frankly was stinking up Poker Stars so I decided to give him one more shot and came up with a plan for him tailored for his roll....'WOW thanks bro !!' thats awesome !' he was on his way...or so I thought.The next morning I drag myself out of bed shaking off the cobwebs of the previous nights festivities and log into Stars. Out of curiousity I locate my 'protege' and well you gotta be fk'n kidding me ...he is 4 tabling .25/50 cash games, 2 tabling the $12.00 (45) mans and playing a $109.00 freezeout tourney. LOL I just about crapped my pants on the spotSo immediately I log on AIM and say 'dude WTF is wrong with you ? did you not hear or listen to a damn word I said last night ?'His reply was pretty much " F U man ...why are you always flaming me ? I know how to play poker now so let me just play ' LOL whoah....alrighty then. So after I was done laughing my a$$ off I realized that I was a little bit pissed off that I had spent all this time on this guy and all he was doing was basically ignoring well thought out advice designed to help him be a better player. Well needless to say his numbers on OPR and sharkscope were/are disgraceful, and I just decided (impulsively) to railbird him and start talkin' smack since I was slightly offended by him not only ignoring my help, but also that he had the nerve to cop an attitude with me. I wasn't in the mood to stroke his ego and opted to btch slap him on the rail out of spite for his blatant disregard for my efforts.So I pull up all his tables on my screen and start lettin it rip from the rail on how he was a donk and how his numbers were pathetic and basically saying 'FREE CHIPS COME AND GET EM' I was hungover and yea it was immature but I was pissed off that all the work I did to create this Excel file and all my good intentions and efforts with him were for nothing.LOL ok so all of the sudden he goes on major tilt...the guy flushes out of all 4 tourneys he had going within a span of about 10 minutes and then loses another $100 or so on his cash games....He starts sending me rapid fire IM's laden with CAPS and you can only guess the kind of profanity he was dishing out at me.So as I am trying to deflect this tirade of TILT, I locate him again and he is sitting with what I can only assume to be the last scraps of his bankroll on a 1/2 table. So I join the waiting list and whattya know I get the seat right to his left.So a few hands go by and I catch J/9os on the big blind....he is on my sb...it folds around and he jams me up to 12 bucks...LOL I auto call knowing he is on tilt and check a 9/9/A flop....he bets 10 bucks I mini raise he jams whats left and I auto call his A/7os. It was like fishing with dynamite.So of course the IM's start up again 10 seconds after he leaves the table...the first one was 'cmon bro ship it back'Im like 'ship WHAT back ?'This was about the point where he loses all his composure and starts calling me a 'thief' and a 'liar' and a 'scumbag' and telling me how much I suck and what a joke I am and how he was gonna 'get me' and pretty much flipped on a dime throwing away all the positive energy I had shared with him over the last 6 months or more. Mega tilt and thats an understatement. All of the sudden I was 'setting him up'...putting him on tilt so I could sit at a cash table and 'steal' his last 50 bucks. It was all beyond comical and I was amazed that it had come to this and that he was snapping so hard.Long story short (too late)...He ends up 'reporting' me to Stars for multiple accounts LOL ( I had played on a co-workers account once or twice ) and he actually emails Stars trying to get me 'busted' for multi accounting....the whole thing was beyond comical.So the moral of the story is keep it to yourself....mentoring newbs isn't worth it. They learn how to steal blinds or pump out a squeeze play once in a while, and think they are Jesus Christ overnight. Let them learn it for themselves or if they ask you anything about strat just type in 'cardrunners.com' and then 'GTFO newb'

[ErikRyland1 0]

well thats the ego in poker lol, i'll let you watch me play if you promise not to report one of my accounts man.

[Balloon guy 158]

Okay who else's first thought was:Eric Ryland??????

[chaosnhavoc 0]

Okay who else's first thought was:Eric Ryland??????

LOL Now that you IM'd them your account has probably been hacked and he is laughing at you still... Word of advice: Qualify your "Students" more... They should be interviewing you as much as you interview them!

[KentuckySlim 0]

I tell you to play within your means, you risk your whole bankroll.I tell you not to overextend yourself, to rebuild,you go into hock for more.I was giving you a living, Mike,showing you the playbook I put together off my own beats.That wasn't enough for you...LOL at 45 man turbo SNGs

[TR1N1TY 0]

Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 19:34:18 -0400From: "PokerStarsSupport" <support@pokerstars.com> Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile AlertTo: xxxxxxxx@yahoo.comSubject: Multiple accountsHello XXXXX,Based on reports from our database, it appears that you may have a close relationship with several other PokerStars players.There is not a problem at all if you do know or are related to these users. PokerStars welcomes friends and family to play on our site. We do, however, prefer to know when multiple members of the same family or household are playing here.Upon investigation, it appears that the following accounts may be somehow related or more than just passing acquaintances:'XXXXXX''XXXXXX' If you know any of the above players, please provide us with a detailed explanation of your relation to them. Please include their names, user ID's and their relationships to you.Thank you for your time and cooperation, and thank you for choosing PokerStars.Regards,DavePokerStars Support Team________Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:07:44 -0400From: "PokerStars Support" <support@pokerstars.com> Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile AlertTo: xxxxxx@yahoo.comSubject Re: Multiple accountsHello XXXXXX,Thank you for your detailed response to our concerns, I wish I got emails back as detailed as that everytime I sent an email to a player asking about possible relationships.I would to thank you for your loyalty to us and hope to see you at our tables for a long time to come, please be careful though playing on your friends account when he/she is not with you. As you would know this is a violation of our terms and conditions.Best of luck on the tables!Regards,DavePokerStars Support Team

[esprito 0]

What an ungrateful little ****. Serves him right.

[TR1N1TY 0]

I tell you to play within your means, you risk your whole bankroll.I tell you not to overextend yourself, to rebuild,you go into hock for more.I was giving you a living, Mike,showing you the playbook I put together off my own beats.That wasn't enough for you...LOL at 45 man turbo SNGs

the kid only had about $300.00 in his account and I felt that the $12.00 (45) mans and (18) man turbos were a good appproach to building his roll. You disagree ? I suppose we could have opted for 10 NL six max games or multi tabling 3.40 single table turbos, but I have had a lot of success in the 45/18 man turbos and felt this was a good avenue for him all things considered. You may have a different view on building a $300 dollar roll but the point here is that my guidance was essentially discarded. kind of a slap in the face after six months of intensive tutorials.

[esprito 0]

I have about $145 on AP, what would you say is the best method of building my bankroll? I bought in for $50 and have been playing 0.25/0.50 and had a brief stint at 0.50/1.00 cash games.

[TR1N1TY 0]

I have about $145 on AP, what would you say is the best method of building my bankroll? I bought in for $50 and have been playing 0.25/0.50 and had a brief stint at 0.50/1.00 cash games.

step 1: withdraw all of your money off of AP and get it on Stars or FTto be continued....

[ErikRyland1 0]

lol @ 11 $ sngs with 300 $ umm no.Btw I was serious about checking my game out Tr1n1ty.

[KentuckySlim 0]

the kid only had about $300.00 in his account and I felt that the $12.00 (45) mans and (18) man turbos were a good appproach to building his roll. You disagree ? I suppose we could have opted for 10 NL six max games or multi tabling 3.40 single table turbos, but I have had a lot of success in the 45/18 man turbos and felt this was a good avenue for him all things considered. You may have a different view on building a $300 dollar roll but the point here is that my guidance was essentially discarded. kind of a slap in the face after six months of intensive tutorials.

Blinds get SO big SO fast in those, I find them to be total coin flips. There's not a whole lot of play. There are $5 45 man with regular blind structures, as well as the 4.40 180s. Sounds like your boy doesn't have that kind of patience though.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Just because this case sucks doesn't mean that mentoring's -EV. I'm responsible for turning my bro, best friend, best friend's wife, and my dad on to online poker and they're all winning players (to varying degrees). Yes, there are a couple of friends that are degenerates that wouldn't ever take advice, but they're more the exception. As someone else said, one key to the process is finding students with good potential.

[ErikRyland1 0]

Just because this case sucks doesn't mean that mentoring's -EV. I'm responsible for turning my bro, best friend, best friend's wife, and my dad on to online poker and they're all winning players (to varying degrees). Yes, there are a couple of friends that are degenerates that wouldn't ever take advice, but they're more the exception. As someone else said, one key to the process is finding students with good potential.

Ummm Im right here yo

[chaosnhavoc 0]

Ummm Im right here yo

It said potential not EGO

[navybuttons 15]

WTF?i'm too high on the vike to get this all sorted out now. but he seems like a typical kid and you seem like a huge *******. you (i'm assuming a non-winning player) take on a student (an incredibly nice but immature kid) who doesn't take as well to the mentoring as he could, goes bust a couple times, and decides he doesn't want your tutoring anymore. you start to sit at his tables and berate him (is it wrong to assume he was a friend). when you seem him on tilt you sit at his table for the sole purpose of busting him out of spite. and your defense is you were hungover. apparently having been drunk is an enough of an excuse to act like a ****.then you make this long sob story post about nothing interesting.great post keep em coming.btw, if you are not a winning player, i should note how INCREDIBLY irresponsible it is to take on a student.

[astros11ss 0]

cliff notes: op is poor judge of character, takes on immature, stupid kid to mentor, immature kid tilts away money playing out of his bankroll just like he has his entire life, op comes to obvious conclusion that all mentoring is -evanother nugget of goldfwiw, mentoring has provided me with tons of intrinsic value on top of being ridiculously +ev for me in the short time i have been doing it

[Jimmy_v 0]

cliff notes: op is poor judge of character, takes on immature, stupid kid to mentor, immature kid tilts away money playing out of his bankroll just like he has his entire life, op comes to obvious conclusion that all mentoring is -evanother nugget of goldfwiw, mentoring has provided me with tons of intrinsic value on top of being ridiculously +ev for me in the short time i have been doing it

does that mean you're taking on students?

[astros11ss 0]

does that mean you're taking on students?

nop

[GrinderMJ 0]

cliff notes: op is poor judge of character, takes on immature, stupid kid to mentor, immature kid tilts away money playing out of his bankroll just like he has his entire life, op comes to obvious conclusion that all mentoring is -evanother nugget of goldfwiw, mentoring has provided me with tons of intrinsic value on top of being ridiculously +ev for me in the short time i have been doing it

GRINDERMJ BLOWING UP HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[KentuckySlim 0]

mmmmm playing above your bankroll and going on megatilt...I think I mentored this kid.

[ErikRyland1 0]

You know where to find me...I could show some sng/mtt work( no stake needed )

[onlyme386 0]

So as I am trying to deflect this tirade of TILT, I locate him again and he is sitting with what I can only assume to be the last scraps of his bankroll on a 1/2 table. So I join the waiting list and whattya know I get the seat right to his left.So a few hands go by and I catch J/9os on the big blind....he is on my sb...it folds around and he jams me up to 12 bucks...LOL I auto call knowing he is on tilt and check a 9/9/A flop....he bets 10 bucks I mini raise he jams whats left and I auto call his A/7os.

you know i know you're full of shit?If you're the BB, he's first to act and you don't get to check in this case. How many times have you lost your measly roll?

[troyomac 0]

you know i know you're full of shit?If you're the BB, he's first to act and you don't get to check in this case. How many times have you lost your measly roll?

Good point. I also love the "mini raise", I'm gonna start saying that.

[TR1N1TY 0]

you know i know you're full of shit?If you're the BB, he's first to act and you don't get to check in this case. How many times have you lost your measly roll?

I stated clearly that he was on the SMALL blind in this particular hand....correct me if I am wrong, but if I remember correctly the 'first to act' is the player directly ahead of the big blind. O RLY ? It was a 'blind vs blind' situation. I have no clue how you arrived at the conclusion that there was any 'check' involved here. He was the small blind....I was the big blind and he raised into me in an unopened pot. I may have missed a 'check' or a 'mini raise' but the essense of this hand was that he pushed 10X the pot into me after I flopped trips...I don't have the hand history but I assure you I didn't imagine this hand out of thin air for the sake of this anecdote. I may have flat called his flop bet or mini raised with trips I really don't remember. Splitting hairs here is pointless. The fact is that is was a giftwrapped pot and he had a meltdown accusing me of 'setting him up' and intentionally putting him on tilt for the sake of 'stealing' from him. A: I am the big blindB: he is the small blindC: it folds around to himD: he jams it up 6X and I take the flopE: the rest of the hand is self explanatory