18 replies to this topic

[litlebullet]

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t50./t100.
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t10490
UTG+1: t6690
MP1: t8235
MP2: t13745
MP3: t4475
CO: t15250
Button: t5975
SB: t8650
Hero: t22490

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is BB with A A
3 folds, MP2 calls t100 (pot was t150), 4 folds, 4 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: 9 J Q (t250, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

[simo_8ball]

Unless I'm missing something here, raise preflop.

[Jam-Fly]

Huh? You check oop instead of raising, you are super deep stacked and you opponent checked behind you. It's about as ugly a flop as you can get and I would try to keep the pot relatively small, but I wouldn't quite go as far as check folding

[litlebullet]

I'm never gonna raise one limper preflop, I wanna look WEAK IN THE BLINDS! That's the whole idea!

[NEtwowilldo]

I'm never gonna raise one limper preflop, I wanna look WEAK IN THE BLINDS! That's the whole idea!

Ehhh I don't like it.

He's the one trying to see a cheap flop and outdraw you with whatever his modest holding is. Make him pay to do it.

Bet the flop, if you get raised, proceed with caution.

[litlebullet]

when you raise pre it makes it harder for them to bluff at you though.

[NEtwowilldo]

Checking aces in the BB is basically the same as limping with them, which some people like to do, to try and trap, but It's just not my style.

[cubbybri]

I only limp aces OOP a small percentage of the time, when I think someone behind is going to make a bet so I can check raise. If no one bets than my hand is disguised.

You know this is a head's up hand and you could be raising with a lot more hands than AA. Make him pay to play.

And you should not slow play aces(or anything else) if you plan on shutting down on a scary flop or to a bet.

And yes the board is scary but I think that is more reason to not check the flop, you just gave him a free card on that scary board (which likely also looks scary to him). I think you can pot this since pot is small due to limping to begin with. I would no longer mess around here.

But just letting him see a cheap flop and a free turn on a scary board with rockets is a bigger waste than taking his dead money should he fold to your pre-flop raise.

So now that I have calmed from reading this hand. For next time.

Most of the time raise your aces.

When you choose no to, do so from EP when you are confident that most of the time a bet will follow and you plan to check/raise. Sometimes there will be no bet and you wil go to a flop.

When you slow play, you cannot fold(chicken out) to a bet or you are not slow playing, you are playing weak.


Don't mean to be harsh(I have my own leaks) but you definitely have the wrong idea about playing AA in my opinion in these type of scenarios.

[jmbreslin]

It's just not worth messing around and trying to get fancy-shmancy with hands like this. Raise with the bullets like you're supposed to and if villain folds, move on. Much better than trapping and getting nailed later in the hand. And if you're still not going to raise PF, at least lead the flop.

[simo_8ball]

I honestly thought the converter messed up when I read this.

The reverse implied odds of checking aces here are huge and don't make up for the 'deception value'.

[litlebullet]

aces is just one pair man. I'm gonna limp and see a board i want, like k 5 9 or something like that. The point is to trap a person that hits the board with a high pair that can't put you on the overpair. When the conditions are right like that, then it pays off. If the conditions aren't right, I'm not gonna cry and call and go omg I can't fold aces.

[GrinderMJ]

aces is just one pair man. I'm gonna limp and see a board i want, like k 5 9 or something like that. The point is to trap a person that hits the board with a high pair that can't put you on the overpair. When the conditions are right like that, then it pays off. If the conditions aren't right, I'm not gonna cry and call and go omg I can't fold aces.

LOL. Why ask for advice if you are just going to ignore everybody when they tell you that you made a mistake.

[litlebullet]

good answer grinder mj...
not sure. so seriously, raise pre huh? ok I'll try it next time I'm in this situation.

[Zach6668]

good answer grinder mj...
not sure. so seriously, raise pre huh? ok I'll try it next time I'm in this situation.

Honestly, I think you should be raising AA here 100% of the time. I also think that you should be raising a lot of other hands here. If you do that, then it won't be obvious you have AA.

[cubbybri]

Deception is good at times but I think you just need to know what situation is best for it.

Personally, I rarely ever do it but I like this scenario.

A tight aggressive player without much imagination raises preflop and you are on the button. If the blinds are not the type to see lotsa flops with junk(or at least one of them) you may want to just call. You now have position which will make up for the missed raise.

On non scary flops you now can slow play or raise. This depends on how you judge the player. You can slow play the weak players and you can raise the peeps who get way to attached to their high pocket pairs(since they don't play many hands, some get way too attached). You can score huge in these situations. Do not do this all the time and do not do this unless you are confident on read of players(you may find better in SNGs rather than MTT just because you usually keep the same players longer at your table).

Again, on scary flops you should always bet or raise the flop and then decide on turn whether you should get out. You have position so you always get benefit of seeing what opponent does first to help make your decision.

You do not get AA often so in the large majority of cases, do what makes you the most chips and that is raise or reraise or rereraise preflop. It is usually only ego that causes people to play fancy but limping your aces is in most cases, plain and simple, a mistake. I can say this from experience so hopefully it will help others, that's why we come here, to learn and to help where we can.

[SlackerInc]

Honestly, I think you should be raising AA here 100% of the time. I also think that you should be raising a lot of other hands here. If you do that, then it won't be obvious you have AA.

I agree with both Harrington and Sklansky that you shouldn't ever be 100% that you would never limp with aces or check aces in the BB, because it is a tell that you don't have aces when you limp or check in the future. But I'd definitely agree with raising here the vast majority of the time.

As played, you should definitely not shut down--but as others said, don't play for a big pot. Little pots for little hands, as the saying goes, and at this point you've got a little hand. One pair as you said, but it's still a pretty good pair, so not the same as no hand at all.

ETA: I believe in the section of HoH where Harrington talks about not always raising with aces, he also said it was a theoretical mistake ever to slowplay them preflop (backing up Zach's instinct). But against observant opponents (and considering online people can easily take notes on you and review hand histories) you do have to just occasionally mix things up. It can also potentially discombobulate players who lose a pot to you this way, or even the rest of the table (especially helpful in a STT). Every time you limp or check into a flop, your opponents may be wary of you--and that's got to be to your advantage since statistically most of the time you will not have much if anything.

[litlebullet]

thx guys I like the advice I've been given. As the hand played out, the turn was another broadway card that made a 4 to the straight if you had a 10. So that would mean the turn would be a king, or maybe an 8 I can't remember. I checked again, villain bet out 200. I called. River was a meaningless 4, I check again, villain once again bets 200. By now, I know I'm ahead, I raise to 800, he folds. From the way the whole hand played out, it looked like he prob had a small pocket pair so not raising preflop could have been a disaster for me if the flop did come something like 4 8 K or something. Last question for everyone, how much do I raise? 3 or 4X the bb? Or do I overbet and make it look like a steal?

[NEtwowilldo]

I would raise however much you would raise with any other hand with one limper.

[RISEorFall]

when you raise pre it makes it harder for them to bluff at you though.

do you want him bluffing at you with this flop?