31 replies to this topic

[Startled]

1-2NL Live
Hero ($350): Ac Ks raises from SB to 12 behind 6 limpers (too small?)
4 callers, including BB ($64 in pot)
Flop Ah Qs 2s
Hero, bets $70
BB (Villain) raises to 130 all-in, all fold back to Hero.

BB is a well-known player, who has a usually-contained wild side. He's been playing fairly tight today, but I've seen him make some sick plays in the past.

I tried to put him on a hand that would make sense, and AQ was the hand I settled on, with AK, other Aces and sets seeming less likely. I pondered for quite a while, convinced he doesn't make that move without the lead. Eventually I called. Results below.

I can make the call if he has any Ace, except AQ I think. Bad call facing any set... So, overall, against his range of hands (and how it played out), probably a bad call. What do you think? Feel free to flame the play throughout.

Villain: Ad 2d

Turn 9c, River Kd

[psujohn]

If he never pushes without at least 2 pair you're not getting odds to call. But if you're talking casino 1/2 NL I can't lay it down.

[JoeyJoJo]

he doesn't make that move without the lead. Eventually I called.

You've been watching Daniel play too much.

[benhoug]

1-2NL Live
Hero ($350): Ac Ks raises from SB to 12 behind 6 limpers (too small?)

WAAAAAAY too small. I'm guessing the standard opening raise in this game was b/t $9 and $15. Behind six limpers that raise won't achieve anything - you've got to raise a ton more than this - maybe $25 or $30. As played, you've got to call - b/c of villian's stack, he's not even min-raising you. Sure you're likely behind, but you're getting something like 4.4:1 on your call w/ top pr, top kicker. I think this is as insta-call as they get.

[DOG]

You've been watching Daniel play too much.

+1

[simo_8ball]

WAAAAAAY too small. I'm guessing the standard opening raise in this game was b/t $9 and $15. Behind six limpers that raise won't achieve anything - you've got to raise a ton more than this - maybe $25 or $30. As played, you've got to call - b/c of villian's stack, he's not even min-raising you. Sure you're likely behind, but you're getting something like 4.4:1 on your call w/ top pr, top kicker. I think this is as insta-call as they get.

[DCJ001]

1-2NL Live
Hero ($350): Ac Ks raises from SB to 12 behind 6 limpers (too small?)
4 callers, including BB ($64 in pot)
Flop Ah Qs 2s
Hero, bets $70
BB (Villain) raises to 130 all-in, all fold back to Hero.

BB is a well-known player, who has a usually-contained wild side. He's been playing fairly tight today, but I've seen him make some sick plays in the past.

I tried to put him on a hand that would make sense, and AQ was the hand I settled on, with AK, other Aces and sets seeming less likely. I pondered for quite a while, convinced he doesn't make that move without the lead. Eventually I called. Results below.

I can make the call if he has any Ace, except AQ I think. Bad call facing any set... So, overall, against his range of hands (and how it played out), probably a bad call. What do you think? Feel free to flame the play throughout.

Villain: Ad 2d

Turn 9c, River Kd

After the flop, you were a 2:1 underdog. Calling $60 into a pot of $250 gives you better than 4:1 on your bet. I'll call in this situation every time.

[pokerinc]

1. raise more pre flop. 2. Call everytime after your 70$ bet, you're commited, 3. river the K.


So you pretty much got it.

[psujohn]

After the flop, you were a 2:1 underdog. Calling $60 into a pot of $250 gives you better than 4:1 on your bet. I'll call in this situation every time.

Huh? We have roughly 4 outs - 3 Ks and the bd flush. How is that 2:1?

[seacucumber]

Huh? We have roughly 4 outs - 3 Ks and the bd flush. How is that 2:1?

Q or runner runner pair could counterfeit villain's lower 2 pairs.

[Startled]

Huh? We have roughly 4 outs - 3 Ks and the bd flush. How is that 2:1?

With foreknowledge of the villain's cards, I have 2:1. Of course, I didn't know that. You're missing the longshot runner-runner straight in your odds, too. I think that's worth a half an out or so.

I talked myself into, and then out of folding. I rationalized my call by putting myself inside his head, where he thought I was just trying to pick off the limpers, or maybe he (in my mind in his mind) put me on KK or something. Finally, I decided I was in love with my AK, and I wasn't laying it down for $60. Donktastic, maybe, but I never once thought he had A-2.

A standard opening raise in that game is 10-12, but it is unusual to see raises out of the blinds at all, so I expected people would give me credit for a larger hand and bail. I was surprised when the BB called, mildly surprised when the second caller came in. After that, caller 3 and 4 were just seeing dollar signs if they hit. If BB lays down, I get fewer -maybe zero- callers.

[cMcMonkey]

Huh? We have roughly 4 outs - 3 Ks and the bd flush. How is that 2:1?

If we're figuring he's on a 2-pr here, than AQ we've only got 4 outs, but A2 and we have more than 4, pair the Q or turn card and we've won as well. That's 6 on the flop, 9 on the turn, plus the bd flush and str8 draws. I'd estimate around 9-10 outs sitting on the flop vs A2, and 4 outs vs AQ. If its even money to be either, then avg to 7 outs or a little more than 3:1 to hit by the river. So not quite 2:1, but still better than the pot is laying us.

EDIT: just saw that you didn't consider A2 a possibility, which muddy's things a bit, but you also seemed to think there was some small chance of AJ or AT which might, depending on the % you gave that chance, make the call correct. If you were thinking AQ or AJ/AT then doing a very quick calculation (assuming you always win vs AT/AJ and always lose to AQ, which isn't true but the exceptions close enough to balance out) you'd have to be 80% sure he has AQ for a call to be break even with the pot laying 4:1, >80% would be fold, <80% would be call.

[Acid_Knight]

A 2-1 dog is correct. With such small stacks and such a tiny raise back to you, it really wouldn't matter what he's got or whether he pushes when he's ahead or not becuase pot odds make it an instacall.

Also, when you make the assumption that he won't push without what he feels is the best hand, you've always gotta ask yourself:

Does he think AJ is the best hand here?

These hands and that board make the A2 exactly a 2-1 favorite over AK.

[DB10-2]

in addition to the weakish preflop raise, the other marginal play in this hand was on the flop, when you tied yourself to the hand by overbetting the pot. a $45 or $50 bet would likely have gotten you the same information, and still allowed anyone with two spades or some smaller pair to draw incorrectly assuming most people fold. could you potentially have laid it down if you'd invested $57 into a ~$110 pot and had to call $155 more from the villain?

my motto in loose LL cash games: don't go broke with one pair.

[Startled]

in addition to the weakish preflop raise, the other marginal play in this hand was on the flop, when you tied yourself to the hand by overbetting the pot. a $45 or $50 bet would likely have gotten you the same information, and still allowed anyone with two spades or some smaller pair to draw incorrectly assuming most people fold. could you potentially have laid it down if you'd invested $57 into a ~$110 pot and had to call $155 more from the villain?

my motto in loose LL cash games: don't go broke with one pair.

I'm bad at obeying pot odds (I called, after all), but most of the other people who play are even worse. Getting a flush draw to lay down for less than a pot-size bet is like... well, like expecting 6 limpers to lay down to a $10 raise. It just doesn't work.

BTW, LOL @ watching Daniel play. Getting the right read and calling anyway... Maybe I can TP/MM?

[Zach6668]

I'm bad at pot odds (I called, after all), but most of the other people who play are even worse. Getting a flush draw to lay down for less than a pot-size bet is like... well, like expecting 6 limpers to lay down to a $10 raise. It just doesn't work.

Why are you trying to get someone to "lay down a flush draw?"

[Startled]

Why are you trying to get someone to "lay down a flush draw?"

Um... so they don't make it?

[Zach6668]

Um... so they don't make it?

But how much extra money do you make when they fold?

[simo_8ball]

Um... so they don't make it?

Which do you prefer they do:

a ) Call pot sized bet with flush draw
b ) Fold flush draw to pot sized bet

[mtdesmoines]

Which do you prefer they do:
a ) Call pot sized bet with flush draw
b ) Fold flush draw to pot sized bet

Is this a question on "are you smarter than a 5th grader?"