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Thoughts On A Bluff


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#81 irishguy

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 03:14 PM

View PostJordan, on Thursday, April 5th, 2007, 2:43 PM, said:

no, it usually is in this case. it just happened to work this time.stop pushing into ppl giving them 4:1, or greater, on the river to call. it's a losing prop. cause you won this time doesn't mean it is a right play.often bluffs aren't "right" plays. I know this. I'm not talking about that tho in regards to this hand. This is a wrong play because of how long you have waited to pull your move and the odds he is getting on his money on the end.The fact that you keep arguing the validty and common sense of this point is mind boggling.- Jordan
The post that you qouted wasn't arguing the point you are making. I don't know whats mind boggling about that. As I said I do think this move was wrong based on the pot odds I was giving him and that I had likely limited his range more than I should have. I don't think I waited to long to pull my move. (ITs just not as common as raising the turn) As evident by responses on other forums and yours earlier in this thread that you wouldn't mind the push so much if I wasn't giving those kind of odds.
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#82 Jordan

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 03:58 PM

View Postirishguy, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 7:22 PM, said:

In hindsight I do think there were errors on my end in this hand. I think given the information I had on him I put him on a range that was likely limited farther than it should've been given the pot odds given. I read villain as a super tag fish and felt he wouldn't call me without a huge holding. So in a sense yes I'm still arguing the merits of this particular hand as well as this move in general. The original responses were all that this move was completely retarded and I think given further discussion many who feel it was wrong may see that it is not "completely retarded".
that quote.i belive i was the first person in this thread to use the term tag fish....but just cause he folded to this river bet doesn't mean he was a "tag fish" as...oh bother i dont even feel like going on anymore.i know you dont think this play was "that" bad..but everything about this play is being argued in "hindsight".it may work down the lin (again -- giving someone 4:1 and >), i do delayed bluffs on occasion..but the fact of the matter was this was not thought out on the turn...it was a desperation bluff that didn't even take into account pot odds on the river.i'm glad you had a "read" from his betting tell, or whatever the hell it was...but goodness this play is not going to work 75% of the time. not even close.- Jordan

#83 irishguy

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 04:19 PM

View PostJordan, on Thursday, April 5th, 2007, 3:58 PM, said:

that quote.i belive i was the first person in this thread to use the term tag fish....but just cause he folded to this river bet doesn't mean he was a "tag fish" as...oh bother i dont even feel like going on anymore.i know you dont think this play was "that" bad..but everything about this play is being argued in "hindsight".it may work down the lin (again -- giving someone 4:1 and >), i do delayed bluffs on occasion..but the fact of the matter was this was not thought out on the turn...it was a desperation bluff that didn't even take into account pot odds on the river.i'm glad you had a "read" from his betting tell, or whatever the hell it was...but goodness this play is not going to work 75% of the time. not even close.- Jordan
We're arguing the same point now. You first used the term tag fish I believe in reference to my desciption of vllain. Again I agree 100% that this hand was bad based on the pot odds given him(and I didn't think this through on the turn) as I had limited his range to far. Deeper stack where I could apply pressure with the river shove based on my read without giving good odds I do not feel like it would be a horrible line.
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#84 SuperJon

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 07:51 PM

View Postirishguy, on Tuesday, April 3rd, 2007, 3:55 PM, said:

Firstly I appreciate the discussion with you on this hand. I had started than stopped posting in strat as I often have a different approach than the masses, and found the constant "this is the only way to play" attitude frustrating. You make a lot of valid points. I am not sure what levels you typically play (with zero bankroll management I fluctuate from 1/2,2/4,3/6 depending on my mood). At this level I often find that most people are quick to "try to define their hands". Generally a top pair hand at this level will raise the flop or if not almost always raise the turn, by calling I am trying to represent something better than tptk. Certainly a draw would often play out their hand as mine did on the flop and the turn. The river question posed to Villain is am I coming over the top on the river because I'm bluffing a busted draw, made my hand on the river or slow played a set,two pair etc. Because villain had shown weakness through out my time at the table I didn't think he was the type to call off the river shove with at best one pair. Against other people this most certainly wouldn't be the case and against most at the levels I play you are almost never going to shake someone off of an over pair. This is exactly why I often play sets, two pair etc the same way because against most I'm getting this river shove paid off.
So you're saying that players at this level are predictable? Which probably means you think they're just a bunch of donkeys, right?Well when's the last time you saw a donkey lay down a big pair on the river to an all in?Bad play.

#85 irishguy

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 08:03 PM

View PostSuperJon, on Thursday, April 5th, 2007, 7:51 PM, said:

So you're saying that players at this level are predictable? Which probably means you think they're just a bunch of donkeys, right?Well when's the last time you saw a donkey lay down a big pair on the river to an all in?Bad play.
I see your point. But what you bolded was me saying that most people at this level in my position would be raising the flop or turn with a top pair hand by calling and jamming the river I felt as though I could represent a slow played two pair, set type hand. At no point in this thread did I say I thought villain had a big pair that was an option others brought up. MY point was that I didn't think it was out of line to expect a one pair hand to fold to this river shove. After seeing the kind of odds I was giving him I think it would take in Jordan's words a very tag fish to fold even a marginal hand with the odds they were getting.
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#86 sknkd

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 03:51 PM

View Postirishguy, on Tuesday, April 3rd, 2007, 2:03 PM, said:

I wonder what the talk would be of this hand if I posted as villain holding somehing like AA, KK.
wtg for making your opponent think you were weak while building a pot?

#87 Sefaje

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 09:53 PM

lol i cant believe i missed this thread.irishguy i will pretend you folded Q4 preflop if you promise to use the correct form of their/they're/there from now on

#88 CobaltBlue

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 03:46 AM

Okay...so I read the whole thread.I think one principle that has been touched on but not stated: It's generally better to bluff earlier than later. You'll still have outs and you won't have a monster pot that you're trying to push a guy off of.I do think that the betting patterns are key to this hand. Generally speaking, these bet sizes (2/3-3/4) and betting patterns are strong in the sense that they typically come from competent players. An average competent villain could easily have an overpair, two pair, a set, or a straight here. That said, our "read" is that villain isn't strong. I think that's a BS assessment PF (barring very obvious bet-sizing differences), but as the hand develops, we can hone it. Because of that read of weakness, I think we need to move on the turn...where we'll have a believable story, win a large pot, and still have outs if we're called. Oh, and we can still potentially price him out of drawing (if that's our read).

#89 No_Neck

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 09:15 AM

View PostNaismith, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 12:43 AM, said:

Yeah, but here's the seriously important question.A friend and I got in a debate as to who is hotter, Jessica Alba or this girl: I don't even think it's close, and I think Alba's really hot. This girl makes Alba look like my poker game...ugly and full of leaks. Wait, that doesn't make sense.
wow I think this chick is by far the hottest chick ever...,Alba is hot but not nearly as "I want to slam your head into a wall" hot.....EDIT: Bump

#90 Verdimme

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 09:18 AM

View Postsimo_8ball, on Tuesday, April 3rd, 2007, 9:11 AM, said:

This is a strong case of FPS. My vote is drunk and retarded.

Life is the art of drawing without an eraser.

#91 Naismith

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 11:32 AM

Arbitrary
Peace,
Jay



#92 IBFT

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 10:48 PM

i got through 2.5 pages and i came to this conclusion:This was posted as a veiled brag post because "villain" probably folded the better hand and the "hero" in this hand probably thinks that that is justification for playing the hand poorly.amirite?




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