Jump to content


Thoughts On A Bluff


  • Please log in to reply
91 replies to this topic

#41 irishguy

irishguy

    Your weakness is disgusting to me.

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • Location:London, Ont

Posted 04 April 2007 - 07:54 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 7:28 AM, said:

Very few players, even at higher limits, choose to enter the pot with any 2 cards in an attempt to bluff someone. When they do, they know a very preceise range of hands that the player has PREFLOP based on a tell and they know what flop they need to be able to take them off of their hand.you said "The fact that people think you need a better hand to bluff negates some of the point of a bluff." Your hand doesn't matter, but how you become involved in the hand and when it turns into a bluff do matter. Calling a raise preflop with a hopeless hand like Q4 suited is not a good play. If you call with a hand like 57 suited and miss the flop and feel your opponent is weak, then you can make a play to take it away. You don't do a delayed bluff where you flat call on 2 streets and then push on a fairly harmless river card, hoping that he'll laydown whatever he's bet all 3 streets with.Most players fire 1 bullet bluffs. Some will fire 2. Very few players fire 3 bullets as a bluff, and when they do the bets are rarely sized as 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot each time.
I suppose most of the time this is right. However I don't feel as though Q4 is a hopeless hand. Especially with position I will call a very standard preflop raise with many garbage hands and will evalutae further on the flop. I understand that most players feel that you should only play big cards, suited connectors and pairs for set value. I have no problem calling a very small percentage of my stack in position with trash if I feel like given further info I can win a lot more. Its a lot broader a thought than this but I my father recently told me about a cah hand he played(he's not very good) where he said he raised big preflop with aces (his words "It was obvious I had aces or kings) another guy called with 2's. They got it all in on a flop with the two and my dad couldn't understand how he got that call preflop. I know this comparison is a stretch but I assume you see my point. As much as everyone has said "most slow played hands raise the turn" which is true I also find the turn to be the most popular spot to bluff. Villain very likely could hold 88 or 99 as much as AA, KK or AsKs. His flop bet is standard. Knowing the most people with bluff the turn or expose a slow played hand is generally where I expect his play to differ. The turn card here is not scary if he puts me on a top pair hand, draw or over cards with a hand like 88 he may feel by continuing to bet 2/3 of the pot he is still representing a much stronger hand and slimming down the chance of him getting bluffed out. With a hand like AsKs this turn is damn near perfect for him to fire again. As he may feel like even with top pair his bet is strong enough for me not to raise while he's still looking a ton of outs. When we get to the river if he holds a hand like 88 or AsKs he likely feels like the only way to win the pot is to up his bet. Surely with a weaker holding he figures a bet of $60 will get looked up by top pair hands but by increasing his bet size albiet marginally he'll force a lot of mediocre hands out and that surely anything that comes over the top has him beat. I don't often myself nor see others fire three bullets oop with AA or KK in a spot like this. At some point I see them slow down or try to get tricky. THis was my thinking on the turn a smaller bet with AA or KK gives me A) the chance to bluff B: the chance to over play top pair or C) him the chance to control the pot when he's not to sure what he's up against.
gmanshade owes me $500: Since July 6th, 2009 and counting.....


#42 Acid_Knight

Acid_Knight

    I'm what's left. I'm what's right.

  • Members
  • 9,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Favorite Poker Game:You vs Me. Cagematch.

Posted 04 April 2007 - 08:17 AM

Your whole lesson with the AA vs 22 makes my point for me. 22 is not hopeless. I know what implied odds are. Q4 is about as hopeless a hand as there is. The two cards do not work together and the top one can be easily dominated by your opponent's holdings. The odds of you making 2 pair, a flush or a 1 card straight are terrible and to make things worse, you don't know what your opponent holds.Unless your opponent put chips into the pot and his hand was shaking and you knew that he had a hand like ATo here, there is no reason to call this bet preflop. Even if that was the case, you RAISE preflop. You have position. If you think he's weak, you take control of the hand.You keep arguing that you made a good play here, but the fact is that you made a random and on the river, a very desperate play. In limit poker, people often wait til the more expensive street to try and bluff their opponent because the bets are bigger. In NL, delayed bluffs are not as common. Also, if you have a real hand, you raise the turn (and not wail til the river) for a number of reasons.1. You feel that your hand is best and you want to make the pot bigger so that you can make a larger bet on the river (2/3 of 250 is better than 2/3 of 100)2. If your opponent is drawing and feels that he has outs, he will call a raise on the turn and hope to draw out on the river. Once all 5 cards are out there, he can't draw to anything and can't pay you anything with a draw3. You give your opponent 2 streets where he has to make decisions and 2 streets where he can make mistakes.

#43 Naismith

Naismith

    Perry Friedman: I was planning on reloaded through Naismith

  • Members
  • 4,556 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:BWTBH
  • Favorite Poker Game:No Limit Crazy Pineapple

Posted 04 April 2007 - 08:26 AM

Aside from all of the other things posted in this monster thread, I just wanted to add...This feels extremely arbitrary. It doesn't seem like a hand where you had any information anywhere along the way. Unless there's something I'm missing, this comes across as one of those hands where you just decided at the beginning you were going to win, one way or the other.
Peace,
Jay



#44 Acid_Knight

Acid_Knight

    I'm what's left. I'm what's right.

  • Members
  • 9,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Favorite Poker Game:You vs Me. Cagematch.

Posted 04 April 2007 - 08:39 AM

View PostNaismith, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 9:26 AM, said:

Aside from all of the other things posted in this monster thread, I just wanted to add...This feels extremely arbitrary. It doesn't seem like a hand where you had any information anywhere along the way. Unless there's something I'm missing, this comes across as one of those hands where you just decided at the beginning you were going to win, one way or the other.
That's been my problem from the start. The thread started with "Villain raises $6 to $8 preflop" and a little comment about how the Hero thinks he's weak and it all spirals down from there.

#45 irishguy

irishguy

    Your weakness is disgusting to me.

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • Location:London, Ont

Posted 04 April 2007 - 08:40 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 8:17 AM, said:

Your whole lesson with the AA vs 22 makes my point for me. 22 is not hopeless. I know what implied odds are. Q4 is about as hopeless a hand as there is. The two cards do not work together and the top one can be easily dominated by your opponent's holdings. The odds of you making 2 pair, a flush or a 1 card straight are terrible and to make things worse, you don't know what your opponent holds.Unless your opponent put chips into the pot and his hand was shaking and you knew that he had a hand like ATo here, there is no reason to call this bet preflop. Even if that was the case, you RAISE preflop. You have position. If you think he's weak, you take control of the hand.You keep arguing that you made a good play here, but the fact is that you made a random and on the river, a very desperate play. In limit poker, people often wait til the more expensive street to try and bluff their opponent because the bets are bigger. In NL, delayed bluffs are not as common. Also, if you have a real hand, you raise the turn (and not wail til the river) for a number of reasons.1. You feel that your hand is best and you want to make the pot bigger so that you can make a larger bet on the river (2/3 of 250 is better than 2/3 of 100) h2. If your opponent is drawing and feels that he has outs, he will call a raise on the turn and hope to draw out on the river. Once all 5 cards are out there, he can't draw to anything and can't pay you anything with a draw3. You give your opponent 2 streets where he has to make decisions and 2 streets where he can make mistakes.
I am not saying that this play is optimal at all in most cases. Preflop odds of Q4 vs AA are in the realm of 22 vs AA but are certainly not the samething. I'm saying based on previous play of villain this what the correct play in this situation. What if I'm holding Qs9s and all streets play out the same? Surely we would still be debating the merits of the river shove. I find it hard to believe that playing online poker you have never called three barrells with bot pair, 2 nd pair A high etc. I think the reaction to this hand has been largely influence by knowing my cards. As posted on other forums as villain with AA here are some of the responses.89 open ended straight draw? maybe of spades since the flush+straight draw make the turn call a little more understandable than just a naked straight straight draw.other hands that the 7 would make are 57, T7 or 77, if someone was playing those as drawing hands (57, T7) I can't imagine them calling the first raise then sticking around on the turn and really not 77 for that matter.Also he could've been slow playing a set of Tens, Jacks, or Jack Ten.So in my mind it's 65% 89 of spades, 20% a set or two pair and 15% bluff. I think you would've been better to check call the river, being that your opponent has showed such a willingness to stick around. You are beat. I agree with sotti. You check call the river. You still probably lose but it only costs you the 76 (ish - whatever pot was at). He is probably str8 but could equally have the 2 pr. Cant say without knowing how he plays.If its a bluff - he's brave.You should have bet the flop much harder to find out where you are. Pot bet on the turn subsequently gets rid of the str8 deaw - unless he really likes to pay to see - in which case in the long run you will win. If he has the 2pr - you repeat step 1 of the check call on the river. easy fold. sets, 2 pr, or straight 90% of the time. If you're betting it should be a bet/fold. So yeah fold to the shove. There weren't really any missed draws except KQ so I think you can safely muck this I fold this... sucks to give up the pot but whatev... don't go broke on top pair.I probably fold.Check call any reasonable sized bet I think some not all responses to the hand posted in the same perspective on this forum would be in a simialr vain. I could 100% be wrong and perhaps the players here are much better than elsewhere
gmanshade owes me $500: Since July 6th, 2009 and counting.....


#46 irishguy

irishguy

    Your weakness is disgusting to me.

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • Location:London, Ont

Posted 04 April 2007 - 08:43 AM

View PostNaismith, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 8:26 AM, said:

Aside from all of the other things posted in this monster thread, I just wanted to add...This feels extremely arbitrary. It doesn't seem like a hand where you had any information anywhere along the way. Unless there's something I'm missing, this comes across as one of those hands where you just decided at the beginning you were going to win, one way or the other.
lol you are not to far off base. As I said I'm guilty at times of trying to win every pot I enter. That being said do to experience and play at this table right or wrong I though through every descision that I made and reacted in a way that I thought best.
gmanshade owes me $500: Since July 6th, 2009 and counting.....


#47 Naismith

Naismith

    Perry Friedman: I was planning on reloaded through Naismith

  • Members
  • 4,556 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:BWTBH
  • Favorite Poker Game:No Limit Crazy Pineapple

Posted 04 April 2007 - 08:47 AM

OKay, you posted all the responses from where you posted the hand in reverse as AA. But we don't know the villain has AA here and even if he does have AA, don't forget my #1 rule...don't try to bluff people off AA! Too many people won't fold it.So if our opponent's range is exactly QQ-AA, maybe this works. I still think it's a bad idea. But we have no idea what he has. I guarantee he's not folding JJ, TT, JT or any other set here.EDIT: For the record, I would pay you off with pretty weak holdings here since this looks more to me like you had KQ than anything else. If you'd play a set this way, you'd have my money.
Peace,
Jay



#48 Acid_Knight

Acid_Knight

    I'm what's left. I'm what's right.

  • Members
  • 9,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Favorite Poker Game:You vs Me. Cagematch.

Posted 04 April 2007 - 08:52 AM

View Postirishguy, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 9:40 AM, said:

I am not saying that this play is optimal at all in most cases. Preflop odds of Q4 vs AA are in the realm of 22 vs AA but are certainly not the samething. I'm saying based on previous play of villain this what the correct play in this situation. What if I'm holding Qs9s and all streets play out the same? Surely we would still be debating the merits of the river shove. I find it hard to believe that playing online poker you have never called three barrells with bot pair, 2 nd pair A high etc. I think the reaction to this hand has been largely influence by knowing my cards.
You can't compare the preflop odds of AA vs 22 and AA vs Q4. With 22, you either hit a set or you fold. If you hit a set, you'll get paid off. You're making a small investment with a hand that can't get your into trouble. That's the reason you play small pairs and suited connectors. You call a small bet preflop, hit the flop hard or not at all and then you have easy decisions from there on out.If you're holding Qs9s, then 2 things immediately come to mind. 1: If you want to win the pot, then you'd better make a move at it on the flop or turn to get your opponent thinking that you have a big hand. 2: You actually have a draw and decent odds to chase it on all streets, therefore the river becomes a standard fold instead of a desperation push that comes out of nowhere.Calling 3 barrels or firing 3 barrels? I have called people down with remarkably weak hands, when I have a lot of information to reinforce what I'm doing. I don't call down because I think they might be bluffing. It's the same thing when I fire 3 barrels. I know that my opponent has a small pair and I know that if I fire on all 3 streets, they can't put me on AK anymore and will have to fold. Good poker players have solid evidence and reasoning for why they make any play.The reaction to this thread is TOTALLY based on knowing your cards. That's the idea. We're critiquing the hand from your point of view, so of course we know your cards.You're going to get called on the river here A LOT despite what was said in other threads on other sites because:1: Your play makes no sense. When people are curious, they call bets to satisfy their curiosity. Getting called is bad when you're bluffing. 2: He has more than half of his stack invested in the pot3: He probably has the big pair that he's representing4: He's getting pretty favorable pot odds to call

#49 irishguy

irishguy

    Your weakness is disgusting to me.

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • Location:London, Ont

Posted 04 April 2007 - 08:53 AM

View PostNaismith, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 8:47 AM, said:

OKay, you posted all the responses from where you posted the hand in reverse as AA. But we don't know the villain has AA here and even if he does have AA, don't forget my #1 rule...don't try to bluff people off AA! Too many people won't fold it.So if our opponent's range is exactly QQ-AA, maybe this works. I still think it's a bad idea. But we have no idea what he has. I guarantee he's not folding JJ, TT, JT or any other set here.
I posted in the other forums because that was what was discussed as worst case scenario. I did not think he had AA or KK as stated earlier this player I felt would slow down with those holdings on the turn and look to trap the same way I'd expect from a flopped set. I was very certain through the play of this villain in this hand and previous hands that he very likely had a draw or after further thought a weaker pair 88,99. This was completely player and situation dependant.
gmanshade owes me $500: Since July 6th, 2009 and counting.....


#50 Acid_Knight

Acid_Knight

    I'm what's left. I'm what's right.

  • Members
  • 9,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Favorite Poker Game:You vs Me. Cagematch.

Posted 04 April 2007 - 08:56 AM

View Postirishguy, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 9:53 AM, said:

I did not think he had AA or KK as stated earlier this player I felt would slow down with those holdings on the turn and look to trap the same way I'd expect from a flopped set.
You said at other points in this thread that he has to be worried about your hand if he has AA or KK. Now you're saying that he'd try and trap with it on the turn as if he has a strong hand like a set? That doesn't make sense.

#51 David_Nicoson

David_Nicoson

    Official Forum Me

  • Members
  • 4,418 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indianapolis
  • Interests:Poker<br />Poker<br />Sex<br />Sleep<br />baseball<br />softball<br />Poker<br />Poker<br />Poker<br />Axis and Allies and other lesser board games<br />Chess<br />Poker<br />Poker<br />Poker
  • Favorite Poker Game:pot-limit Euchre

Posted 04 April 2007 - 08:56 AM

I don't think we should ignore the fabulous pot odds that the villain is getting on the river. It's almost 4.5 : 1.It's easy for a guy on a forum to ignore that because he's getting even money on his reputation. If he says fold the overpair he's right more than half the time (easily) but that's really meaningless. In the real world where money in the pot has value, the villain is going to say, "I guess I have to pay you off" and reluctantly call with his overpair. If the villain doesn't have a pair, the hero might steal this pot on the river. In general, though, I think that's counting on too much. I think if the hero wants to bluff, he should do so on the turn before the villain is pot-committed and while he can still hit outs if called. I'm not a fan of waiting until we miss to put money in the pot. I like to think of it in terms of information. The hero gains no useful information from the river card: he was going to bet a blank or hitting his draw. The villain, on the other hand, does benefit from seeing the blank. We lost the battle of information.
QUOTE(bleacherbum3 @ Friday, February 29th, 2008, 3:28 AM) View Post
I'm invincible. Like Super Mario when he gets that star thingy.


#52 irishguy

irishguy

    Your weakness is disgusting to me.

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • Location:London, Ont

Posted 04 April 2007 - 09:06 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 8:52 AM, said:

You can't compare the preflop odds of AA vs 22 and AA vs Q4. With 22, you either hit a set or you fold. If you hit a set, you'll get paid off. You're making a small investment with a hand that can't get your into trouble. That's the reason you play small pairs and suited connectors. You call a small bet preflop, hit the flop hard or not at all and then you have easy decisions from there on out.If you're holding Qs9s, then 2 things immediately come to mind. 1: If you want to win the pot, then you'd better make a move at it on the flop or turn to get your opponent thinking that you have a big hand. 2: You actually have a draw and decent odds to chase it on all streets, therefore the river becomes a standard fold instead of a desperation push that comes out of nowhere.Calling 3 barrels or firing 3 barrels? I have called people down with remarkably weak hands, when I have a lot of information to reinforce what I'm doing. I don't call down because I think they might be bluffing. It's the same thing when I fire 3 barrels. I know that my opponent has a small pair and I know that if I fire on all 3 streets, they can't put me on AK anymore and will have to fold. Good poker players have solid evidence and reasoning for why they make any play.The reaction to this thread is TOTALLY based on knowing your cards. That's the idea. We're critiquing the hand from your point of view, so of course we know your cards.You're going to get called on the river here A LOT despite what was said in other threads on other sites because:1: Your play makes no sense. When people are curious, they call bets to satisfy their curiosity. Getting called is bad when you're bluffing. 2: He has more than half of his stack invested in the pot3: He probably has the big pair that he's representing4: He's getting pretty favorable pot odds to call
I know you can't compare the preflop odds of AA vs 22 to AA to that of Q4. People view it as a trouble hand and I understand that. As you said with small pairs or suited connectors you look to hit the flop or exit. Q4 is not a trouble hand to me as I am confident that I'm seldom going broke if I flop just top pair here but to each there own. The bolded part...so you call down because you know they are bluffing? This is my point. Against this opponent I may very well play this hand out in a similar fashion with 33 but perhaps not shove the river. The second bolded part. I agree with this point I'm sure I as well as most others could pull a number of hands out of there history which as stand alone hands would never make sense but given collected information would. If I were villain I'd be more inclined to call this river with a marginal hand if hero raised on the turn. That may not be how you see it. But if as villain with AK got raised on the turn I'd very very likely check call any river bet including a shove.
gmanshade owes me $500: Since July 6th, 2009 and counting.....


#53 irishguy

irishguy

    Your weakness is disgusting to me.

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • Location:London, Ont

Posted 04 April 2007 - 09:18 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 8:56 AM, said:

You said at other points in this thread that he has to be worried about your hand if he has AA or KK. Now you're saying that he'd try and trap with it on the turn as if he has a strong hand like a set? That doesn't make sense.
I believe at other points in this thread I said on the river he needs to be more worried on the river if he has AA or KK. On the turn I think I've often contended that if he has AA or KK he likely bets less hoping I raise or looks to check raise. Even holding AA or KK if he checks I bet 28 he makes it 60 and I shove then what? I'm not sure my point is coming across well but it makes sense in my head. I think by him betting the way he did on the turn he does nothing to further define my hand. I think from his perspective it has to look by the river that I've gotg two pair or better or a busted draw.
gmanshade owes me $500: Since July 6th, 2009 and counting.....


#54 Acid_Knight

Acid_Knight

    I'm what's left. I'm what's right.

  • Members
  • 9,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Favorite Poker Game:You vs Me. Cagematch.

Posted 04 April 2007 - 09:23 AM

I give up on this thead.The play was retarded and I already made my points why.

#55 Naismith

Naismith

    Perry Friedman: I was planning on reloaded through Naismith

  • Members
  • 4,556 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:BWTBH
  • Favorite Poker Game:No Limit Crazy Pineapple

Posted 04 April 2007 - 09:27 AM

View PostDavid_Nicoson, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 8:56 AM, said:

I don't think we should ignore the fabulous pot odds that the villain is getting on the river. It's almost 4.5 : 1.It's easy for a guy on a forum to ignore that because he's getting even money on his reputation. If he says fold the overpair he's right more than half the time (easily) but that's really meaningless.
LOL. I love that you can even give us the math on reputation value.
Peace,
Jay



#56 irishguy

irishguy

    Your weakness is disgusting to me.

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • Location:London, Ont

Posted 04 April 2007 - 09:28 AM

View PostDavid_Nicoson, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 8:56 AM, said:

I don't think we should ignore the fabulous pot odds that the villain is getting on the river. It's almost 4.5 : 1.It's easy for a guy on a forum to ignore that because he's getting even money on his reputation. If he says fold the overpair he's right more than half the time (easily) but that's really meaningless. In the real world where money in the pot has value, the villain is going to say, "I guess I have to pay you off" and reluctantly call with his overpair. If the villain doesn't have a pair, the hero might steal this pot on the river. In general, though, I think that's counting on too much. I think if the hero wants to bluff, he should do so on the turn before the villain is pot-committed and while he can still hit outs if called. I'm not a fan of waiting until we miss to put money in the pot. I like to think of it in terms of information. The hero gains no useful information from the river card: he was going to bet a blank or hitting his draw. The villain, on the other hand, does benefit from seeing the blank. We lost the battle of information.
He is getting fabulous pot odds. But my read on this villain was that he didn't want to get it all in with out the nuts and I felt based on his play that an overpair wasn't likely. In his spot with 88, A10 etc and maybe AK I may call the river but did not feel as though villain would. I don't think the turn bluff is a bad option at all and against most certainly a more optimal approach than this.
gmanshade owes me $500: Since July 6th, 2009 and counting.....


#57 irishguy

irishguy

    Your weakness is disgusting to me.

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • Location:London, Ont

Posted 04 April 2007 - 09:36 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 9:23 AM, said:

I give up on this thead.The play was retarded and I already made my points why.
Results: Villain folded. This is why hands like this interest me, it comes down to more than who is right or wrong or as you politely put it "the play was retarded". Which is exactly why I seldom post in strat. There are only one are two ways to play hands to the masses here and if you don't follow them you don't know anything. If you thought this was retarded you would sh-t your pants at how I played a K5 hand from the button when I stacked a guy or when I final tabled a tourney yesterday after busting two people when I called a small raise vs two even stacks from the button 83 and busted them both. I am not saying this play was correct(I felt it was at the time) or optimal at all as much as I think it is a mistake to discount it simply because you wouldn't do it. The discussion with people who different view points often leads to a greater thought process which is a good thing.
gmanshade owes me $500: Since July 6th, 2009 and counting.....


#58 Acid_Knight

Acid_Knight

    I'm what's left. I'm what's right.

  • Members
  • 9,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Favorite Poker Game:You vs Me. Cagematch.

Posted 04 April 2007 - 09:46 AM

View Postirishguy, on Wednesday, April 4th, 2007, 10:36 AM, said:

Results: Villain folded. This is why hands like this interest me, it comes down to more than who is right or wrong or as you politely put it "the play was retarded". Which is exactly why I seldom post in strat. There are only one are two ways to play hands to the masses here and if you don't follow them you don't know anything. If you thought this was retarded you would sh-t your pants at how I played a K5 hand from the button when I stacked a guy or when I final tabled a tourney yesterday after busting two people when I called a small raise vs two even stacks from the button 83 and busted them both. I am not saying this play was correct(I felt it was at the time) or optimal at all as much as I think it is a mistake to discount it simply because you wouldn't do it. The discussion with people who different view points often leads to a greater thought process which is a good thing.
Great, you get me out for one last post.Results do not matter. I didn't blindly say that this play is retarded, I made a statement and then backed it up with like 35 reasons why I felt that way. All you kept saying in the post was that "i felt he was weak" or this or that, but WHY did you feel that way? WHY did you read your opponent that way? Unless you can clearly explain those things and your rationale for making this play, then it's still a bad play. You get people to agree with your line if you can provide a convincing arguement for why you did it, but I don't feel that you ever did in this post. For the most part, the strat forum is populated by people who feel they know something about poker but are trying to learn more. To do that you need to be open minded. This whole post I was looking for you to provide a convincing arguement for why you decided to play this hand like this and I don't really feel that I ever saw it.Nobody here cares how you play K5 from the button or how you did in a tourney with 83. You're not Gus Hansen, and even he can give you definitivie reasons for why he enters every pot that he does. If you're regularly playing hands like K5 and 83 by calling preflop raises with them, I can almost guarantee that you're not a winning player. Yeah, great, you look really smart when you actually hit one of those hands, but the fact is that you need ot get EXTREMELY lucky to hit one of those hands or you need to have EXTREMELY good reads on the players in the pot if you're going to enter. Even then, there's still no reason to get involved with something that trashy.

#59 Naismith

Naismith

    Perry Friedman: I was planning on reloaded through Naismith

  • Members
  • 4,556 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:BWTBH
  • Favorite Poker Game:No Limit Crazy Pineapple

Posted 04 April 2007 - 09:50 AM

For the record, I'm a pretty decent player and I guarantee you late in a tournament, if I raised with a premium hand, I'd go broke on any flop that helped 8-3 as well. :club:
Peace,
Jay



#60 Zach6668

Zach6668

    FCHL Champion.

  • Moderators
  • 48,126 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto, ON

Posted 04 April 2007 - 09:55 AM

lol @ this thread.AK, will you have my babies?
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users