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#1 chgocubs99

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 09:17 PM

I have a question to see if anyone has/is going through the same situation as me.First a little background:I had a very successful year last year playing tournaments, by far my best year ever. I had a 3-4 fairly large scores, and was looking forward to more of the same this year. I even blogged earlier in the year that I should AVOID playing cash games, and stick to what I've been doing well at, tournaments.Well, the first quarter of this year has been a reversal like you wouldn't believe. I simply cannot cash in ANYTHING, and I mean ANYTHING. Full Tilt, Stars, Bodog, live play, you name it. I am not a high volume player by any means, and by looking at my ITM % from Stars (was near 25% at the end of last year, not sure what it is now), I figured I had a dry spell coming.The last week has really been the kabash for me. I've been on vacation from work and put in a ton of hours at the tables, both live and online. At the circuit event at Caesars I played in 3 tournments, barely cashed in one (which I had to suck out, 98 vs AA all in preflop to survive), got rivered in another, and lost a key coin flip or I would have cashed in another. I also put in a ton of hours at the side games and was up after a previously chronicled monster session. Because of the tournaments I ended up slightly down on the trip.Came back home and put in a shitload of hours online over the last few days. Needless to say, I can't cash on ANYTHING on Stars, just got coolered and bad beated to get knocked out of two Bodog tournaments, and took some horrendous beats in the 11r as well to bust out of that. On the other hand, I have been destroying the cash games on Bodog over the last few days...Which finally brings me to my question.Can I/do I want to stop playing tournaments? Taking the beat I just took on Bodog gave me the usual sick gut feeling one gets when taking a beat from a horrendous play by your opponent that paid off for him. That feeling got me to thinking...why do I feel this way? Should I be playing tournaments? I don't know what a good sample size is, but over about 10K ring hands (mostly 1/2, 2/4 NL, with some .50/1 and 3/6 NL sprinkled in) I am at 12 PT BB/HR. Granted, I realize that people put in a ton more volume than this, but that is really not the point of this question. In 153 tracked tournaments this year, I am down $5300, and I would estimate that total is closer to $8 or $9K after you take into account that I didn't use PT to seriously to track tournaments at the beginning of the year.I'm not going to go in to huge detail about my precise results for last year, but needless to say it has been a rough first quarter of the year. You will probably need more specific info about my play last year to judge whether I'm just in a downswing, I can only estimate for you that I played perhaps 300-400 tournaments. Re-reading this, it turned way more into a blog than a question, but I really believe that if the "Tournaments" tab would just get off the applet, I would be up a ton more money this year. It's like I'm addicted to tournaments and can't get away even though I continue to struggle. It's like an alcoholic finally getting a good new job, then using all of his paycheck on booze. I think my sample size isn't big enough this year for me to assume, and I could cash in a big tournament tomorrow making all of this a moot point. But I needed to get it off my chest.Not sure if any of that means anything to anyone, but thanks for listening and curious to hear if anyone knows where I'm coming from.
QUOTE (dscoot @ Friday, April 10th, 2009, 3:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
im still not sold that many of these people that get these big online scores are winners when it comes to the live game, which, by the way, is real poker.


#2 freak2304

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 09:25 PM

I am what I consider a serious recreational player. I don't play quite at the levels you do, but I have always seemed to play better when I focus on one of them for a few days at a time, and only played them. My tourney play is MUCH different than my cash game play (as everyone's basically is), so I try to focus on one "type" of poker in a given period. I dunno if that helps any, but that's one thing I've noticed with me that's helped my mindset while playing, if nothing else. GL.
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#3 Crosspointe1

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 03:54 AM

Maybe the change of 'scenery' from tourney to cash games will do you good. If you are killing the cash games, build your roll back up but sprinkle in a few tourneys here and there for your 'tourney fix'. Then switch back to more tourneys at a later date after your mind and bankrol has been refreshed.

#4 HoosierAlum

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 05:43 AM

As with any poker question, "it depends". You are a recreational player, so what are your goals in poker? If your only goal is to strictly make $, then just play cash games. If your goal is enjoyment+profit and you enjoy tournaments, then play both. The answer to your post is only something you can answer.10k hands is nothing. I usually play 10k hands a week and I'm lazy as ****. Also, I think you are neglecting a little thing called sample size. The variance in mtts is straight up stupid and 3 months of running bad is nothing if you don't play high volume. Granted, you might have some leaks, but don't get stressed out about a bad mtt run if you hardly play.




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#5 mk

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 05:49 AM

4 User(s) are reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)2 Members: mk, Ron_Mexico--------no i will not make out with you.

#6 iowahawk09

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 06:35 AM

If you are doing well in the cash games, just take a break from the tournaments for awhile. Like Hoosier said, there is so much variance at those levels that it is not worth it to get down on your play. Lately I have been running terrible in MTTs, even though I have been consistently putting my chips in with the best hand. People have just been drawing out and getting lucky in spots that are critical for my tourney life.I am currently taking a break from MTT's and have been playing cash games on Absolute and just crushing them. I find that the switch allows me to calm down and for whatever reason, when i start playing in tournaments again, I have much more success.Just stick with your game plan. MTT's are a great way to make a big score without risking alot of $ buy in wise. But like I said if you are running bad, but crushing the cash games, just stick with it. Come back to the tournament scene in a couple weeks and I bet you will fair alot better.

#7 astros11ss

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 06:40 AM

quit blaming your results on variance, hold yourself accountable for every single tourney you play. you might be running below the mean, but playing perfect poker is damn near impossible so you always have things you can work on, leaks you can plug, etc. spend time reviewing old hand histories, studying other people's games, thinking about general tournament theory and what adjustments you can make to your game to counter the ways your opponents generally get the better of you, etc etc etc. on the other hand, asking other people "do i want to play tournaments?" won't be very useful - as hoosier said only you know.

#8 chgocubs99

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 07:19 AM

Well, Hoosier and Bkice, one of you is telling me the variance is sick and the other is telling me to not blame the variance. However, you are both right in that I'm the only one who can answer if I want to play tournaments. To answer the question, I want to make money. I don't care about a gambling fix or entertainment factor. Cash games and tournaments are both fun and entertain me quite fine. However, I look at my year last year and wonder if I am on a heater in cash games right now (hence the 12BB/100 run over 10K hands) and this will come back way down (since I always thought I was a much poorer cash game player), and I am simply in a tournament downswing.And again, I realize I'm the only one that can answer a lot of this. I'm the only one that can go back and critique my play. I'm the the only one that knows if I've been playing bad or running bad in tournaments, and vice versa in cash games. My guess is, like usual, it's in the middle. Yea, I'm running good in cash games, yea, I'm running bad in tournaments. Hoosier you were def right on the money though when I am neglecting sample size. It's a common mistake of low volume players, and I'm making it now.

View PostCrosspointe1, on Tuesday, April 3rd, 2007, 6:54 AM, said:

Maybe the change of 'scenery' from tourney to cash games will do you good. If you are killing the cash games, build your roll back up but sprinkle in a few tourneys here and there for your 'tourney fix'. Then switch back to more tourneys at a later date after your mind and bankrol has been refreshed.

View Postiowahawk09, on Tuesday, April 3rd, 2007, 9:35 AM, said:

If you are doing well in the cash games, just take a break from the tournaments for awhile. Like Hoosier said, there is so much variance at those levels that it is not worth it to get down on your play. Lately I have been running terrible in MTTs, even though I have been consistently putting my chips in with the best hand. People have just been drawing out and getting lucky in spots that are critical for my tourney life.I am currently taking a break from MTT's and have been playing cash games on Absolute and just crushing them. I find that the switch allows me to calm down and for whatever reason, when i start playing in tournaments again, I have much more success.Just stick with your game plan. MTT's are a great way to make a big score without risking alot of $ buy in wise. But like I said if you are running bad, but crushing the cash games, just stick with it. Come back to the tournament scene in a couple weeks and I bet you will fair alot better.
Agree with both of these posts. Glad to see I'm not the only one going through something like this.
QUOTE (dscoot @ Friday, April 10th, 2009, 3:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
im still not sold that many of these people that get these big online scores are winners when it comes to the live game, which, by the way, is real poker.


#9 HoosierAlum

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 07:57 AM

View Postchgocubs99, on Tuesday, April 3rd, 2007, 10:19 AM, said:

Well, Hoosier and Bkice, one of you is telling me the variance is sick and the other is telling me to not blame the variance.
Well, both are true. Variance is crazy in mtts and can cause prolonged downswings. However, it is a big mistake to blame bad runs on variance because you will never improve this way. I can almost guarantee you have holes in your game (everyone does) that you should be focusing on, instead of just saying to yourself "I'm running bad." Earlier I was just trying to illustrate that not hitting a big score in 3 months of limited play really isn't a big deal.Try this: For every mtt you play keep a small "journal". Take brief notes of pots you are involved in, and not just the bustout hands. It sounds tedious, but its not hard even with 5+tables up. At the end of the day you can review your mistakes and try to improve upon your play. Also, just because you won a hand it doesn't mean you played it correctly. Take a step back and try to subjectively analyze your play.I definitely agree with BK in that taking responsibility for your results is one of the most important traits of a winning player.




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#10 NoSup4U

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 08:05 AM

View PostHoosierAlum, on Tuesday, April 3rd, 2007, 8:57 AM, said:

I definitely agree with BK in that taking responsibility for your results is one of the most important traits of a winning player.
I thought you tourney guys just blamed Lee Jones and that was the end of it?Mark

#11 HoosierAlum

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 08:21 AM

View PostNoSup4U, on Tuesday, April 3rd, 2007, 11:05 AM, said:

I thought you tourney guys just blamed Lee Jones and that was the end of it?Mark
I'm not a "tourney guy". :club: But yea generally that is the easiest thing to do.




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#12 Pot Odds RAC

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 08:28 AM

Ride the wave that comes to you, don't try and force yourself into a preconceived notion of the sort of player you "should" be. Sounds like you set some goals and personal expectation related to Tourney play. But if your hot hand is the Cash Game, then adapt and ride that wave. At least you aren't on a total cooler!

#13 akoff

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 08:30 AM

QUOTE(NoSup4U @ Tuesday, April 3rd, 2007, 11:05 AM) I thought you tourney guys just blamed Lee Jones and that was the end of it?MarkWorks for me!! Somehow it is never my fault...
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#14 Pot Odds RAC

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 08:32 AM

View PostHoosierAlum, on Tuesday, April 3rd, 2007, 7:57 AM, said:

Well, both are true. Variance is crazy in mtts and can cause prolonged downswings. However, it is a big mistake to blame bad runs on variance because you will never improve this way. I can almost guarantee you have holes in your game (everyone does) that you should be focusing on, instead of just saying to yourself "I'm running bad." Earlier I was just trying to illustrate that not hitting a big score in 3 months of limited play really isn't a big deal.Try this: For every mtt you play keep a small "journal". Take brief notes of pots you are involved in, and not just the bustout hands. It sounds tedious, but its not hard even with 5+tables up. At the end of the day you can review your mistakes and try to improve upon your play. Also, just because you won a hand it doesn't mean you played it correctly. Take a step back and try to subjectively analyze your play.I definitely agree with BK in that taking responsibility for your results is one of the most important traits of a winning player.
This is good advice too. When I went thru a downswing last year, I thought: "Variance!!!'But when I stepped back and did some introspection, I had to admit that while a large percentage could be attributed to "Variance", there was still a sizable component of trying to force my play, or throwing good money after bad. If even 20% of a down sizing is related to holes, then that is the difference between going out on the bubble in 3-4 tournaments and cashing in 1 or 2 of them.

#15 NoSup4U

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 08:53 AM

View PostHoosierAlum, on Tuesday, April 3rd, 2007, 9:21 AM, said:

I'm not a "tourney guy". :club: But yea generally that is the easiest thing to do.
Haha, for some reason I consider you one of the tourney donks. (and I mean that very lovingly in case anyone doesn't know that :D ). I guess I just don't talk to you enough. PM your IM info if you want another donkey on your list.That being said, all the tourney donks play way over my head at cash games anyway, so its really a moot point haha!Mark

#16 chgocubs99

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 01:04 PM

Bumping for the evening crew...any thoughts.
QUOTE (dscoot @ Friday, April 10th, 2009, 3:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
im still not sold that many of these people that get these big online scores are winners when it comes to the live game, which, by the way, is real poker.


#17 armen13

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 01:27 PM

I've looked at your stats on pokerdb. First of all, you have only played 66 tourneys this year, that is way too small a sample size (realy, it is). Secondly, 2/3rds of these tourneys have had > 1000 entrants (mostly much more), this adds tremendously to the variance involved. The smaller field tourneys, even though they only account for 1/3rd of those played, have brought in 5/8 of all the cashes this year. What I'm saying is, if you feel you are running bad, the last thing you want to do is increase your variance. Maybe play smaller feilds for a while and get a couple of good final tables in and get your confidence back up.Also I agree with what Hoosier and BKice, this is a great time to review your game.Anyway, wish you goood luck at the tables, as long as you're not at my table :club:

#18 chgocubs99

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 01:37 PM

Interesting, doesn't include my Full Tilt stats (as chgocubs99). I don't have the full version so I don't know my losses exactly, but I can imagine they are pretty putrid.What is a good MTT tourney sample size?I mean, one big cash can change everything.
QUOTE (dscoot @ Friday, April 10th, 2009, 3:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
im still not sold that many of these people that get these big online scores are winners when it comes to the live game, which, by the way, is real poker.


#19 armen13

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 01:50 PM

View Postchgocubs99, on Tuesday, April 3rd, 2007, 5:37 PM, said:

Interesting, doesn't include my Full Tilt stats (as chgocubs99). I don't have the full version so I don't know my losses exactly, but I can imagine they are pretty putrid.What is a good MTT tourney sample size?I mean, one big cash can change everything.
Actuary can answer this better, but I beleive it depends on your edge. It's all theorethical anyway since your edge changes from day to day depending on how you feel that day and how tough the opponents are etc. The larger your edge the smaller the sample size can be but I think this is offset as the tourney size gets larger (think of the chances of any top pro winning wsop main event). So that means it may be more practical to compare it by general categpory than overall. So for example, you need a different sample size for Sunday 1M garanteed vs the 180 man 20$ sng's.Btw pokerdb is worth every penny. The stuff you find out about yourself is worth the fee alone.




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