Please Help With This Hand

[sandwedge 30]

Hi all, I rarely come in General Strategy, but I should. Please tell me if this was a completely Donk play:Situation: $20 mtt, around 700 people. We're very close to the bubble. I'm top 10 in chips.Poker StarsNo Limit Holdem TournamentBlinds: t200/t400(Ante: t25)9 playersConverterPre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with 5 5 5 folds, Hero raises to t1600, 2 folds, BB calls t1200 (pot was t2425).Flop: 5 8 4 (t3625, 2 players)BB checks, Hero is all-in t18080...I couldn't decide what to do on the flop. I just pushed and prayed he didn't have 2 spades. I wanted to get him off a spade draw if that's what he had.

[Actuary 3]

Pot is about 3400 on flop, really no reason to shove, unless you are trying to represent a big over bet on a semi-bluff, and hope to get called by some loose over pair.Bet for value on the flop and to protect your hand; but not a shove - again, unless you think it looks weak and he'll call.I'd bet 2600 on the flop and go broke when he re-raises you.Then if he calls, hope a spade does not hit the turn, and get another 1/2 pot bet in then.(edited, since results are removed now)

[Zach6668 513]

Hey sandwedge,In strat, we ask that you follow the forum posting guidelines pinned at the top of this forum, and each of the individual strat forums.A brief rundown: Convert your hand (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter/), don't include results, and post in the correct forum, in this case Tourney.I usually give 1 free conversion, so I'll do it (takes 2 seconds), but in the future, we'd just ask that you follow the guidelines.Thanks.- Zach

[ramenandeggs 0]

what's villian's stack size? it makes a difference on your betting in further streets. your high range of betting would be 3500-4000 here, a pot sized bet is enough to make a high spade drawing outside of his pot odds. half pot on turn to keep extracting value on a non spade. also, when you become a big stack, you never want to go into push and pray mode.

[Actuary 3]

what's villian's stack size? it makes a difference on your betting in further streets. your high range of betting would be 3500-4000 here, a pot sized bet is enough to make a high spade drawing outside of his pot odds. half pot on turn to keep extracting value on a non spade. also, when you become a big stack, you never want to go into push and pray mode.

other guy had 24k, he had us covered

[Zach6668 513]

other guy had 24k, he had us covered

Goddamnit. I forgot to include stack sizes in my conversion... GrrrrrrSo much for me trying to be nice.

[sandwedge 30]

Zach,Thanks for the conversion, and I apologize for breaking the rules (I'm a newb in here).With that flop, I rationalized pushing because I'm happy to take the pot down there. I definately don't want to give him any impression of "getting odds" if he has one high spade. Also, we're both chipleaders and I figure he doesn't want to go bust on the bubble. However, if he is on a spade draw and wants to risk it, I'll take the chance to get a huge stack.My question though, is would you better players have been able to get away from that hand, and if so how?

[Actuary 3]

My question though, is would you better players have been able to get away from that hand, and if so how?

I can't imagine any player gets away on the flopIf the turn spades, then yeah.The reason you don't shove, is to make more money from hands drawing very thin.Against better flopped hands, you just go bust. Chance he has two spades is about 1/20

[sandwedge 30]

Makes sense. Thanks.

[Balloon guy 158]

I understand the push, But I think a bet of 2,000 would have done the same thing, if he calls he's on draw.Since it's the BB and there was no reraise I am less afraid of being behind here, so no reason to be so afraid.spade comes on turn or river then you have to reconsider, but I still think anything less than a Js would fold to your re-raise if he catches a 4th spade.you're stack is still healthy enough that you want value from hand.If this was live you could open farrell and show to get lots of respect later on.

[pokerfan1080 0]

Don't know what the stack sizes are.Preflop, I don't like raising small pairs but in late position with everyone folding to you I guess it's not so bad. However, once I see any sign of aggression I'm done with the hand.Flop, I would bet 2500-3000, probably closer to 3000. If villain pushes I would only call if I felt he was on a draw or bluffing, so it's read dependant. This is a dangerous board and you are still in good shape to go deep, I don't see the need to go broke in these situations if villain has you covered. You do have outs to a boat, but they are very thin. Save the heroics for another day.

[ukwildcat09 0]

You wasted a lot of equity by pushing. You want him to have a flush draw and to call. You have a set, and the board will pair roughly 34% of the time in that situation. I would have bet less then the pot and hoped he called. We don't even know if he has a flush draw.

[sandwedge 30]

Don't know what the stack sizes are.Preflop, I don't like raising small pairs but in late position with everyone folding to you I guess it's not so bad. However, once I see any sign of aggression I'm done with the hand.Flop, I would bet 2500-3000, probably closer to 3000. If villain pushes I would only call if I felt he was on a draw or bluffing, so it's read dependant. This is a dangerous board and you are still in good shape to go deep, I don't see the need to go broke in these situations if villain has you covered. You do have outs to a boat, but they are very thin. Save the heroics for another day.

We were on the bubble (top 90 paid, 104 peolpe left). I probably would have raised with anything there just trying to accumulate chips (The table had tightened up). Of course, I would lay it down to a big reraise, especially from another chipleader (remember, we were both top 10 in chips). I think the reason he didn't reraise me preflop is because of my stack size.Thanks for all the responses. The main thing I've learned is to not necessarily fear that flop, but rather get a good bet into the pot to get chips if he's only on a draw.And I like BG's suggestion of the open farrell. Once again, that higher level play eluded me in my time of need.

[Actuary 3]

I missed the straight on the flop

[copernicus 0]

And I like BG's suggestion of the open farrell. Once again, that higher level play eluded me in my time of need.

Ok Ive been away too long, whats an "open farrell"?

[Actuary 3]

Ok Ive been away too long, whats an "open farrell"?

when you fold OOP in a 3-way or more pot on the flop so that others left to act will know that they will not have to concern themselves with you.This induces action from those that migt otherwise fear your presence.It's level 9 thinking.9 yr old, that is.

[sandwedge 30]

Ok Ive been away too long, whats an "open farrell"?

Open Farrell Thread

[copernicus 0]

Open Farrell Thread

One of the worst threads ever. Open folding is unethical at best, imo, and is illegal in come tournaments/cardrooms.

[Actuary 3]

One of the worst threads ever.

heresy

[rog 0]

One of the worst threads ever. Open folding is unethical at best, imo, and is illegal in come tournaments/cardrooms.

Sorry to disagree with you Cope, but I just don't think you're thinking about it on the same level as someone as genius as JFarrel. Don't feel bad. Not many of us can truly appreciate his contributions to the poker world. I myself only experience brief moments of clarity where I truly understand the brilliance of JFarrel, but alas, it is always fleeting, and I'm left with an empty feeling afterwards. Perhaps this thread will give you better insight into the mind that brought us the "Open Farrel":http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...?showtopic=4893

[copernicus 0]

Sorry to disagree with you Cope, but I just don't think you're thinking about it on the same level as someone as genius as JFarrel. Don't feel bad. Not many of us can truly appreciate his contributions to the poker world. I myself only experience brief moments of clarity where I truly understand the brilliance of JFarrel, but alas, it is always fleeting, and I'm left with an empty feeling afterwards. Perhaps this thread will give you better insight into the mind that brought us the "Open Farrel":http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...?showtopic=4893

i vote for kangaroo str8>str8 there are fewer of them after all