21 replies to this topic

[CoolHandLaw]

Details: SB is loose, willing to pay it out to see a lot of hands. Earlier, went allin with A6o and took out 2 players. then went allin 47o and hit their cards.Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converterSB (t2340)BB (t555)Hero (t2975)MP (t550)Button (t1580)Preflop: Hero is UTG with [Qh], [As]. Hero raises to t425, Hero...Final Pot: t2865Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (3 handed) converterBB (t2195)Hero (t3150)SB (t2655)Preflop: Hero is Button with [Ah], [9s]. Hero raises to t800, Hero...Final Pot: t3095

[custom36]

Hand 1: CallHand 2: Ehhh, I think I might fold this one.

[akishore]

hand 1 is a gamble. either decision is fine. most likely you're just in a coinflip, and the pot is basically 1-to-1, so either direction is fine. if you want to gamble and get more chips so you have a better chance of winning, call. if you want to sneak into the money, fold.hand 2 just depends on the villian. you're getting 2-to-1, so if the villian is a rock, it's an easy fold, but if the villian overvalues hands like KJ and stuff, it's an easy call.aseem

[cdddc75]

Hand 1: Reluctant fold. Considering you are against a maniac, I think you should have either checked or raised more. You walked yourself into a tough call here with the 4x raise UTG. If this guy is as bad as you say, I'd wait until I was in the money to bust him. No reason to put yourself down with the other small stacks in desperate shape to make the money.Hand 2: Easy call. You are already in the money. If you fold or call and miss, you're in third place. If you catch, you are heads up with a big lead and blinds small enough to play solid poker to bust the SB.

[cdddc75]

akishore said:

hand 1 is a gamble. either decision is fine. most likely you're just in a coinflip, and the pot is basically 1-to-1, so either direction is fine. if you want to gamble and get more chips so you have a better chance of winning, call. if you want to sneak into the money, fold.

The stacks if he folds:SB (t2865) BB (t455) Hero (t2550) MP (t550) Button (t1580) That's hardly sneaking into the money. Still an excellent chance to win, without risking the lock of making the money.

[Rocketwadster]

If you know the style of poker that SB plays, should you not have just limped in pre-flop with your ace queen offsuit, then see what he does? The SB did exactly what you didn't want to do, put you to a test with a very good hand, but not an excellent hand (there's a reason Doyle doesn't play them :wink: ). By limping, you will either get to see the flop for your limp, or if he then raises you, it is a much easier laydown (if he went all-in), or an easy re-raise (if he didn't go all-in on his raise). Plus, there may be more money in the pot from other callers by playing it in the fashion I described, improving your pot odds to justify making the iffy call. :wink:

[CoolHandLaw]

Thanks for the replies.Hand 1: Being that she played ultra loose and just plain horribly in my opinion, I opted to fold and wait for a better spot to pick her off. I wasn't happy about the fold, but I did it. Rocketwadster: You've given me good advice on past HH that I've posted regarding NL tournies that I've played in, but I'm confused as to why you would want to limp in with AQo, even if it is UTG. Limping in would only allow those with potential drawing hands to come in and potentially hit. Isn't the idea of raising here to eliminate those limpers, even though I dont hold a bullet proof hand?Hand 2: This guy was a rock for the most part and would move allin when he had a hand. A9o is relatively strong 3-handed, but against this guy I decided to lay it down and pick him off later. Unfortunately, he picked me off and won the tournament.Am I overvaluing A9o 3-handed by actually considering this call? Forget that he is tight and moves in with premium hands. Is this just plain over-valuing?

[custom36]

I don't believe you're overvaluing that hand at all. An A 3-handed is a lot different than an A at a full table. It has a lot more value, even if it has an X with it because at a 3-handed table, a high card has a lot better chance of holding up unimproved.

[RISEorFall]

Actually, A-9 shorthanded is better than the random A if someone else has one. Only 4 cards above the 9 that outkick you (not including pocket A's), but 6 cards under the 9 that you beat. I'm not saying play it like it's golden, just something to consider.

[Rocketwadster]

Quote

Rocketwadster: You've given me good advice on past HH that I've posted regarding NL tournies that I've played in, but I'm confused as to why you would want to limp in with AQo, even if it is UTG.  Limping in would only allow those with potential drawing hands to come in and potentially hit.  Isn't the idea of raising here to eliminate those limpers, even though I dont hold a bullet proof hand?

My thinking here is that you know that they SB is agressive (ie. probably going to raise), so by limping you are either going to see the flop relatively cheaply, or if they do raise you (as you are predicting), you can go over the top of them or lay it down (if you are scared of their all-in). It is the same as if you have aces in that same position, in that you limp in early position hoping that someone raises it so you can re-raise. You only really have a decision then if the SB goes all-in. 75% of the time (at least) I would play it exactly like you did, but with agressive players I find that you have to mix up your plays a bit to keep them off balance. A limp/raise in this position would make them laydown right there (you win), or call you (you may win with your pretty good hand). :wink:

[Vade]

CoolHandLaw said:

Details:  SB is loose, willing to pay it out to see a lot of hands.  Earlier, went allin with A6o and took out 2 players.  then went allin 47o and hit their cards.Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converterSB (t2340)BB (t555)Hero (t2975)MP (t550)Button (t1580)Preflop: Hero is UTG with [Qh], [As].    Hero raises to t425, Hero...Hero damn well better fold here...this is a horrible spot for the chip leader to double the 2nd best stack upFinal Pot: t2865Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (3 handed) converterBB (t2195)Hero (t3150)SB (t2655)Preflop: Hero is Button with [Ah], [9s].    Hero raises to t800, Hero...I'd fold here too, Aces look shiny but A-x offsuit still sucks...there is better spots, and BB has at least a pair or a big Ace...KQ is the only thing you're ahead of here imoFinal Pot: t3095

[cdddc75]

Vade said:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (3 handed) converterBB (t2195)Hero (t3150)SB (t2655)Preflop: Hero is Button with [Ah], [9s].    Hero raises to t800, Hero...I'd fold here too, Aces look shiny but A-x offsuit still sucks...there is better spots, and BB has at least a pair or a big Ace...KQ is the only thing you're ahead of here imoFinal Pot: t3095

Pot odds are 3095/1395 = 2.22 to 1 to call here. Calling against a bigger ace would suck, but I think the times where BB pushes over the top with a smaller ace or any pair make this call worthwhile. Even against KK or QQ, this call is almost worth making from a pot odds view.

[Rocketwadster]

[quote]Pot odds are 3095/1395 = 2.22 to 1 to call here. Calling against a bigger ace would suck, but I think the times where BB pushes over the top with a smaller ace or any pair make this call worthwhile. Even against KK or QQ, this call is almost worth making from a pot odds view.[/quote]I would tend to go against the pot odds here, as this is the final stages of a tournament, not a ring game. In a ring game, i'd maybe call (as the pot odds dictate it), but at this stage of the tournament I don't think you want to take that gamble with this hand. If the SB had called, would you still say to call based on the pot odds (the pot has even more money in it if that is the case)? :wink: [/quote]

[cdddc75]

Rocketwadster said:

I would tend to go against the pot odds here, as this is the final stages of a tournament, not a ring game. In a ring game, i'd maybe call (as the pot odds dictate it), but at this stage of the tournament I don't think you want to take that gamble with this hand. If the SB had called, would you still say to call based on the pot odds (the pot has even more money in it if that is the case)? :wink:

If the SB calls, I let them fight it out and wait to take the winner out heads up. I'm not backing down with a solid 3 handed holding in the money though, especially when I still can come back if I lose the hand. I'm too lazy to do the math at the moment, but folding here is -EV against anything but a bigger Ace.

[Rocketwadster]

Quote

If the SB calls, I let them fight it out and wait to take the winner out heads up. I'm not backing down with a solid 3 handed holding in the money though, especially when I still can come back if I lose the hand. I'm too lazy to do the math at the moment, but folding here is -EV against anything but a bigger Ace.

So, your going against the pot odds if there are three people in but with the pot odds if only two people...you can't have your cake and eat it too :wink:

[cdddc75]

Rocketwadster said:

Quote

If the SB calls, I let them fight it out and wait to take the winner out heads up. I'm not backing down with a solid 3 handed holding in the money though, especially when I still can come back if I lose the hand. I'm too lazy to do the math at the moment, but folding here is -EV against anything but a bigger Ace.

So, your going against the pot odds if there are three people in but with the pot odds if only two people...you can't have your cake and eat it too :wink:

Now that I think about, if the SB calls, I'd probably push and force him all in too. I can win the tournament outright on what is functionally a freeroll. Folding means I'm heads up (or virtually so since SB will be terribly crippled) with 1/4 of the chips, while pushing everyone in means I either win right away or wind up heads up with 1/8 of the chips.Why did I want to fold against both callers? :oops:

[Rocketwadster]

Glad to see that you have seen the error of your ways...lol :wink:

[Devilkin]

Quote

Details: SB is loose, willing to pay it out to see a lot of hands. Earlier, went allin with A6o and took out 2 players. then went allin 47o and hit their cards.

Obviously a pattern mapper at work here - fold every hand they play . . .;)Dev

[Absolute]

cdddc75 said:

Hand 1:  Reluctant fold.  Considering you are against a maniac, I think you should have either checked or raised more. You walked yourself into a tough call here with the 4x raise UTG.  If this guy is as bad as you say, I'd wait until I was in the money to bust him.  No reason to put yourself down with the other small stacks in desperate shape to make the money.Hand 2: Easy call.  You are already in the money.  If you fold or call and miss, you're in third place.  If you catch, you are heads up with a big lead and blinds small enough to play solid poker to bust the SB.

This is wrong on both accounts.His raise was arguably TOO strong pre-flop. And how do you check pre-flop? If you meant limp, that is horrible advice here.Also, I don't like either call.But the second hand deserves more consideration for calling than the first.

[cdddc75]

Absolute said:

cdddc75 said:

Hand 1:  Reluctant fold.  Considering you are against a maniac, I think you should have either checked or raised more. You walked yourself into a tough call here with the 4x raise UTG.  If this guy is as bad as you say, I'd wait until I was in the money to bust him.  No reason to put yourself down with the other small stacks in desperate shape to make the money.Hand 2: Easy call.  You are already in the money.  If you fold or call and miss, you're in third place.  If you catch, you are heads up with a big lead and blinds small enough to play solid poker to bust the SB.

This is wrong on both accounts.His raise was arguably TOO strong pre-flop. And how do you check pre-flop? If you meant limp, that is horrible advice here.Also, I don't like either call.But the second hand deserves more consideration for calling than the first.

Hand 1: I meant limp instead of check (brain fart). But if limping and raising 4x are both bad plays, what is left? Folding and min raising. What does a min raise accomplish here?Hand 2: If you are willing to raise 4x with A9 off three handed, then folding to that reraise is very weak/tight, IMO.