Pair + Flush Draw

[chgocubs99 0]

Blinds - $2/5. I have about $900 in front of me when the following hand comes up:I pick up 6-7 of spades on the cutoff seat. Hypo-aggro in LP makes it $20 after 2 limpers. I call the $20. Button goes all in for $46 total. Both limpers call as does the LP aggro. I call the additional $26 and we see a flop.8 6 3 with two spades.EP bets $150. New player but is agressive and is clearly a regular. He has $700 or so behind. Hypo-aggro in LP calls the $150. He has around $700 behind as well.What do I do??

[fckthis 0]

Shove.

[Naismith 0]

Shove.

Succinct.Also, agreed.

[krup24 0]

Shove.

and pray you don't get a call from another flush draw or set

[mtdesmoines 2]

Succinct.Also, agreed.

I'm not sure I agree. We're working a $300 pot with a +/-$750 stack and second pair, flush draw on a low board. Too many hands here utterly kill us here to give LAGs our money. They'll certainly give us better spots.

[No_Neck 0]

I'm not sure I agree. We're working a $300 pot with a +/-$750 stack and second pair, flush draw on a low board. Too many hands here utterly kill us here to give LAGs our money. They'll certainly give us better spots.

so you say call?gamboooooollllll

[Acid_Knight 2]

Unless there are compelling reasons to say otherwise, I've stopped advising people to fold pairs and flush draws. It's just easier that way.

[mtdesmoines 2]

Unless there are compelling reasons to say otherwise, I've stopped advising people to fold pairs and flush draws. It's just easier that way.

My bad. Sometimes I forget which team I'm on.

[myenemy 0]

Unless there are compelling reasons to say otherwise, I've stopped advising people to fold pairs and flush draws. It's just easier that way.

HAHA.. I'll bite. I fold.Even though it is $150 into a $530 pot, there is too much evidence suggesting either a set or better FD (or worse both!!), BCS we're vs. an overpair. I can certainly get my money in better than that.

[rdtedm 0]

HAHA.. I'll bite. I fold.Even though it is $150 into a $530 pot, there is too much evidence suggesting either a set or better FD (or worse both!!), BCS we're vs. an overpair. I can certainly get my money in better than that.

Folding here is too weak. I think shoving is the only right move, because calling lets other people draw to the flush when they most likely don't have a pair that beats ours. If we can get our money in and get one person to fold, even if we're against an overpair, we're drawing to 9 outs for the flush, 2 for trips, and 3 for two pair, and possibly running straight cards. This gives us 14 outs with two cards to come assuming villain has an overpair. If he has a set or two pair, we've still got outs.I want to emphasize that this is never a fold given the odds, at the very least this is a call and re-evaluation on the turn.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Even though it is $150 into a $530 pot, there is too much evidence suggesting either a set or better FD (or worse both!!), BCS we're vs. an overpair. I can certainly get my money in better than that.

Where is this evidence. There is a bet and a call on the flop, that's it. You shouldn't be looking for excuses to call or excuses to fold, you should be looking at the information objectively and trying to decide what it's telling you. I don't really see any evidence in this hand that gives away much about the hands of either villain. Since we don't have much information and we have a fairly strong hand then we shouldn't be folding.

[Naismith 0]

Yeah, I think saying there's obviously a set and a flush draw is seeing monsters. Of course, there might be, but there's certainly no evidence to say definitively.I push because I want the 300 dollars in the side pot and I want to go against the all in with a hand that's in really good shape against his range for that last 200 bucks. If someone calls me with a set, well, that sucks for them. Sorry about your luck, Mr. Set. In any case, a push here represents some serious strength and folds a lot of hands that beat what we have.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Sorry about your luck, Mr. Set.

What's that, a set of 8s? It's ok, I've got outs.Turn: 6River 6See

[Naismith 0]

What's that, a set of 8s? It's ok, I've got outs.Turn: 6River 6See

That's how you win with style.

[Zach6668 513]

If you were to get it all in (or shove and have him fold) with middle pair and a flush draw 100% of the time, you'd come out ahead.

[chgocubs99 0]

Folding here is too weak. I think shoving is the only right move, because calling lets other people draw to the flush when they most likely don't have a pair that beats ours. If we can get our money in and get one person to fold, even if we're against an overpair, we're drawing to 9 outs for the flush, 2 for trips, and 3 for two pair, and possibly running straight cards. This gives us 14 outs with two cards to come assuming villain has an overpair. If he has a set or two pair, we've still got outs.I want to emphasize that this is never a fold given the odds, at the very least this is a call and re-evaluation on the turn.

I agree with this post.I folded the hand.Part of the problem with the way I played the hand was not using the information I had gathered, most importantly that I was playing against two very LAG players. That being said, let's eliminate my admittidely weak play (folding) and look at my other two options:1) Call. My problem here is, what am I looking to hit on the turn? Let's say a blank falls. The guy who fired $150 now shoves. What's my play now? I was assuming (incorrectly so) that he would fire on the turn after the strong flop bet. Odds of me hitting with one card to come only? I am not getting the right odds...not to mention I HAD to consider the possibility that someone had higher spades as well, which would then stack me considering the size of the pot.2) Shove. This, I am fairly certain, is the correct play considering the players and the situation. It is for the exact reason that Zach said.As someone posted about picking a better spot, I did get it all in with one of the LAG's in a "better spot" later in the session. However, the ends do not justify the means.

[Naismith 0]

I agree with this post.I folded the hand.Part of the problem with the way I played the hand was not using the information I had gathered, most importantly that I was playing against two very LAG players. That being said, let's eliminate my admittidely weak play (folding) and look at my other two options:1) Call. My problem here is, what am I looking to hit on the turn? Let's say a blank falls. The guy who fired $150 now shoves. What's my play now? I was assuming (incorrectly so) that he would fire on the turn after the strong flop bet. Odds of me hitting with one card to come only? I am not getting the right odds...not to mention I HAD to consider the possibility that someone had higher spades as well, which would then stack me considering the size of the pot.2) Shove. This, I am fairly certain, is the correct play considering the players and the situation. It is for the exact reason that Zach said.As someone posted about picking a better spot, I did get it all in with one of the LAG's in a "better spot" later in the session. However, the ends do not justify the means.

Could you please post the hands of the players involved?

[mtdesmoines 2]

Could you please post the hands of the players involved?

I think hero posted that his hand was mucked. I really didn't like the advice of pushing with this hand. We are connected to this flop, but it's likely we're behind. I like that the hero waited for his spot and got his man. Better than having to reshoot, rebuild and hope villain still has checks.

[No_Neck 0]

how did this hand end? we must know.

[Acid_Knight 2]

It seems to be a common trend in this forum lately that whenever anyone posts a hand where they flop a pair and a flush draw with a suited connector (like, oh, this post for example) and there are 2 other people who are obviously interested in the pot, then the Hero (and many other posters) always want to assume the worst, which is that you're against a set and a bigger flush draw. It's as if no other possibilities exist.When you play these hands, you're going to be in multiway pots. Quite often, several people will hit the flop. Sometimes they have sets, sometimes they have flush draws, overpairs, 2 pair, straight draws or other hands. Unless the action is VERY DEFINITIVE in the hand and there's a lot of evidence (that you can rationalize) pointing towards both your pair and your draw being totally dead, then you shouldn't be considering folding these hands.Yes, you make a big mistake if you push and you ARE against a pair and a flush draw, but when you're against 2 overpairs and are a HUGE money favorite in the pot, you're making a similarly large mistake in folding.

[Naismith 0]

I think hero posted that his hand was mucked. I really didn't like the advice of pushing with this hand. We are connected to this flop, but it's likely we're behind. I like that the hero waited for his spot and got his man. Better than having to reshoot, rebuild and hope villain still has checks.

Yeah, he mucked, but there was an all in, so some cards had to be shown down. :)I really just want to know the cards because of all this "obviously a set and bigger flush draw" talk. I obviously agree with your second line, but you have to remember that many, many, many hands we beat fold to our push and we get to freeroll against the all in for the remaining pot.

[mtdesmoines 2]

Yeah, he mucked, but there was an all in, so some cards had to be shown down. :)I really just want to know the cards because of all this "obviously a set and bigger flush draw" talk. I obviously agree with your second line, but you have to remember that many, many, many hands we beat fold to our push and we get to freeroll against the all in for the remaining pot.

I'm not a big fan of squeezing. I trap squeezers at least once per session.

[chgocubs99 0]

how did this hand end? we must know.

The guy who bet the flop bet another $200 or so on the turn. The player with chips left folded. The all in player had AA and won the main pot. The other player showed JJ and won a side pot. I don't know what the other player could have possibly had to call that amount on the flop and fold to a $200 bet on the turn. Apparently he made a WSOP final table and had some money to burn. I happily helped him with this problem later in the evening.Oh yea, the turn was a 5 and the river was a 9...which, honestly, is probably why I posted this hand in the first place. But it was interesting either way.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Yes, you make a big mistake if you push and you ARE against a pair and a flush draw, but when you're against 2 overpairs and are a HUGE money favorite in the pot, you're making a similarly large mistake in folding.

*pats self on back*

[mtdesmoines 2]

The guy who bet the flop bet another $200 or so on the turn. The player with chips left folded. The all in player had AA and won the main pot. The other player showed JJ and won a side pot. I don't know what the other player could have possibly had to call that amount on the flop and fold to a $200 bet on the turn. Apparently he made a WSOP final table and had some money to burn. I happily helped him with this problem later in the evening.Oh yea, the turn was a 5 and the river was a 9...which, honestly, is probably why I posted this hand in the first place. But it was interesting either way.

So what. Good fold 90% of the time.