20 replies to this topic

[Jordan]

This was a live 1/2nl game (200 buy in) that was playing like 2/5 or 5/5nl.

Most players were atleast 100bb deep, with a prob 5 or 6 of us 300bb or deeper.

I myself was sitting with around prob 600 - 700, and the player in the hand had me covered. He and I were the best players @ the table no question. He mixed up his game well and was the only other truly aggressive player at the table like myself. I think he was playing pretty TAG, but I never saw many of his hands, except when he had his big hands cracked, all of which he started with premiums.

Here is my image, as I saw it and some info.

It was a standard live game. A lot of passivity, but they will call you down with funny hands cause they can't play poker they just call. It's fun, I like these games cause I abuse people in position. A standard line for this table were between 4 and 5 limps for $2, I raise to $20 blind on the button, they all fold. I did this a few times, if I went to a flop HU or 2 or 3 way, I usually cbet 1/2 pot or so, sometimes 60-80% depending and took it down. I think i was only "caught" once here in this situation.

Some other hands I had shown...I flopped a fd with 5c 6c on a AcQc9x board and bet out $8 or so, turn was a 8x and I bet $15 into a weak player, just controlling pot size and on the river blank I checked, he showed A3 and I showed my hand just to let people know I'll lead with these type draws, trying to set up later. Keep this hand in mind.

Another one to remember. I flopped two pair with 8d9d in the sb HU against this weak/tight player...but kinda good in a weird way...K89 flop. I bet $15 into him, he calls. Turn x I bet $30, he calls. River completely a flopped flush draw, but I put him on some kinda K and not really a flush draw, based off how he was calling me and I value bet $30, He called with KQ, I win. So now they also know I lead with strong hands.

I was also c/ring with tptk when I was short stacked...as I was as I ended up rebuying for $320 on the night. I lost a massive pot when I flopped the nut str8 against top set against this horrible player. He rivered the boat and was shipped $500+. Once I got more money on the table I kept playing loose and letting ppl know, although it really wasn't that loose, or out of line, I just wanted people to think that. Anyways, the hand.

I have 3c 6c in the sb, just about the entire 10 person table limps, prob 8 of us to the flop.

4d 5d 7s

Everyone is in for $2, and I lead for $15.

the KQ guy above calls me, this new really weak player called me, the good player I described above calls me and says "I'll donate some more I guess" (he had lost 1k+ in two hands to suckout and a sick cooler) so on the turn we are 4 handed (including myself)

turn was 2s

I bet $45, putting the very weak player on a flush draw, and the KQ guy a wdie range, maybe str8 draw, or tp that he was scared with, and not sure what the good player had...

the weak player called, the strong player made it $115 more to call, so $160.

this really caught me off guard, and I was trying to clear my head to think thru his range, what his flop comment meant and why now he was raising so much. obviously only the 86 beats me, but is def. in his LP limping range, but so is 44 55 77 and 22, but I was also thinking if he flopped a set he has to raise, and I know he would, and the ONLY hand he would not raise with is the 8d 6d, although in this game I think he would raise with the str8 no matter what, even with the redraw and "blocker" to a higher flush draw.

the weak player was upset at the raise, and I was about 80% confident if i called he would fold...and I still wasn't sure what to do here, as far as value for my hand, pushing the good player off a hand? i mean, i had a str8, i didn't think i wanted to push him, but we were both still so deep. I had like, 500 or 600 still behind me.

I opted to call the $115 more and the weak player folded. I then said I check blind


River 9h

he thought for 5 seconds or so and put out $200.

I believe I had around 400-600 behind me at this point. He covered.

this is where the above thinking came back stronger. I usually am pretty good at taking myself out of the moment and replaying the hand, which i think i did do here decently and then interpreting how i had been playing that night and what he had seen from me...my stupid bets OOP with bad hands, or my stupid bets OOP with very strong hands..all the times I check/raised guys playing TPTK, or a flush draw and gutshot...i thought for him to bet here meant he A) had a str8 that i had beat, or he had me beat, or he had a set and thought based off my prior actions I had a two pair type hand, or maybe a pair + fd...yada yada.

basically i confused myself by playing the hand so aggressively oop, coupled with the fact that I knew he and I were the best players there, and he knew it, and we had a respect for each other and were not messing iwth one another, so when this bet came at me...it just confused me more. both because of how i had played my hand up to this point, and again with how he may hve been interpreting my prior play.

ahh, i almost forgot. I kept replaying him saying "i guess i'll donate" as he called the flop. I wasn't sure if that really meant he was on some sort of draw, a gutter ball, or something, i know he wouldn't say that with a flush draw, or if he was messing with me with the nuts and a redraw and was hoping I lead out strong again and start to get pot stuck oop. Idk, basically i wasn't sure how sincere he was and if he was, what that actually meant?

SO ANYWAYS, what do you do on the turn? what do you do on the river?

i really think there are so many different aspects to this hand cause of how deep we were...and it really reminds me that my deep stack play is not as good as it could be. although..i was getting very tired at this poitn and I dont think I was thinking 100% optimally.

- Jordan

[rdtedm]

lol, long post. you should separate it into chapters, and then I have the number for a good publisher if you want it.

Anyways, the only hand I think might beat you here is 6d-8d. He would play a hand like that almost exactly as he did if he is a good player.. But I think he's value betting a set here. I'd call or come over the top - probably lean towards calling.

[Acid_Knight]

I just want to poke a little fun becuase that's maybe the longest strat OP I've ever seen.

If I think back to every time that someone made the "i'll donate" speech, most of the time they are not kidding. They are calling with a draw or fairly weak hand figuring that by announcing that, maybe you'll bet smaller if you have a strong hand since they've already said they're weak.

I don't see how you can afford not to raise here. The villain could have had a massive draw like Ad3d and he turned what he thought was the best hand after flopping a double gutter and a flush draw. It's just, as played, I think that it's tough to put him on the only hand that beats you (there is only 1 hand after all) and flat call the turn AND river. If the river paired the board or made it anymore dangrous otherwise, obviously a call is correct. If you raise here, obviously you lose to the 68 straight, but you'll likely get paid off by A3, a set and maybe even soem 2 pair hands if the villain is weak enough, although you didn't give off that impression.

I think that a raise to $450 or so would be good. I know that basically leaves you nothing behind, so you can move in if you want. I'm pretty sure that raising the river after a blank falls is far and away the correct move.

If I'm the villain, once you give up the lead to me in the hand on this board, I'd think that a set was good and I'd be value betting it just as he did.

[pokerplayer24]

Meh looks pretty decent.

River is an unbelievably easy CRAI as played.

A3 is a ton more likely then 86 and I think if he has a set and or 2 pair hes stuck paying you off as well since the pots so big at this point.

[Snamuh]

Meh looks pretty decent.

River is an unbelievably easy CRAI as played.

A3 is a ton more likely then 86 and I think if he has a set and or 2 pair hes stuck paying you off as well since the pots so big at this point.

I pretty much agree. Unless I had a really certain read that the villain would only act this way with the nuts, I am probably pushing as well.

[BrantC]

I believe I am leaning more towards the monsta draw with the A-3 or something like that, or a set. Definitely a river raise and I think he'll have to pay ya off. Kinda off topic, this is a HUGE 1/2NL game. I don't normally see these types of stacks in the game. But its good, better for playing poka. Wish some of the 1/2NL games were as deep as this one that I've played in.

[mtdesmoines]

SO ANYWAYS, what do you do on the turn? what do you do on the river?

Villain was drawing to steel wheel / nut flush.
He puts you on high PP, and is extracting value.
If it's me, I think I'm ahead, but I just call.
Cause we're not messing with each other.

EDIT: And now I see AK posts same hand I did.

[offmandh]

if hes really a good player, i dont think theres anyways hes gonna say "i guess ill donate" with 6d8d. that seems like something only real bad players do. I think he has Ad3d or a set. i just dont know any good players that would say that after the flop. i would call.

[No_Neck]

Meh looks pretty decent.

River is an unbelievably easy CRAI as played.

A3 is a ton more likely then 86 and I think if he has a set and or 2 pair hes stuck paying you off as well since the pots so big at this point.

agreed, you could have broke him. I mean if you aren't going to raise on the river with the second nuts and the nuts is a very unlikely hand....

[Jordan]

first let me state that I think I may have miscalculated my stack...and in more thinking, I think on the river I had a total of around $400-$450 infront of me, so the $200 bet was roughly half my stack.

anyways, more of my thoughts.

i usually am good at removing myself from the moment of a hand and what not, but i honestly became so lost in this hand. I think it was from a combo of being fatigued, as I was going on my 6th hour of playing (started 10pm, ended 6am), and not being able to asses optimally his hand, or how he was playing me based off my hands I had shown.

I really had felt that this guy was not going to mess with me without a nut, or near nut hand, and this bet he made on the river in position was something that I knew he wouldn't do even against me without the near nuts. With that being said, I know I was lost..and after debating for about 2 minutes (as to whether to call or raise) I decided to just call the $200. (I dont like closing my eyes and calling, but i hate closing my eyes and shoveling more. but this wasn't a case of closing my eyes and calling, although I was lost, there was no way I was folding)

He turned up the As 3s, so many of you were correct on his hand, but he had actually picked up the nut flush draw on the turn as well.

I wasn't that sickened, as I'm not going to be completely results based. I knew I was lost in the hand, and I had his range from a set, to my hand, to the 6d 8d. We talked about it afterwards and I'm not 100% sold on the only play is to raise, even knowing the results..but I do think I somewhat outthought myself, didn't clear my head of the situation (for reasons stated like fatigue, but also a series of running bad over the last 5 months into cooler after cooler and seeming to lose every big pot, may have given me monster under the bed syndrome).

Regardless, I think I learned a lot on this hand, especially in regards to playing very deep against the only other player at the table whose game you respect.

I thought it was an interesting hand, but maybe more so because of the diff. factors, in my mind, that were going into it.

I finished the night up 7 or 800, but had I pushed that hand I think it would have been close to a grand even. Oh well. Regardless, I got a lot out from the hand not related to money at all.

- Jordan

[myenemy]

Jordan,

Ive read a lot of your posts and am surprised to see this one from you. Is there anything else going on that is distracting you? Maybe the money? IDK, but if so, look to resolve those before continuing. Im a predominantly live game player and find it impossible to focus for long periods of time without a clear mindset. On a good head I can easily sit for 10 hours before getting weird. Also I have completely given up all $1-2 play, I am convinced its impossible for me to win. I stick to $2-5 or $5-10 when I have the roll (I dont do this for a living but play about 3x a month in AC).

BTW, I just call the river, there too. My only issue with your hand is slightly underbetting the flop and turn. I realize the flop was a PSB but in that game, with 8 limpers, I over bet it slightly, maybe $20 or $25. On the turn, you bet $45 into a $76 pot with 4 players. Personally, I bet $60 to $75, in a big way BECAUSE it is a $1-2 game.

GL

[Jordan]

Jordan,

Ive read a lot of your posts and am surprised to see this one from you. Is there anything else going on that is distracting you? Maybe the money? IDK, but if so, look to resolve those before continuing. Im a predominantly live game player and find it impossible to focus for long periods of time without a clear mindset. On a good head I can easily sit for 10 hours before getting weird. Also I have completely given up all $1-2 play, I am convinced its impossible for me to win. I stick to $2-5 or $5-10 when I have the roll (I dont do this for a living but play about 3x a month in AC).

BTW, I just call the river, there too. My only issue with your hand is slightly underbetting the flop and turn. I realize the flop was a PSB but in that game, with 8 limpers, I over bet it slightly, maybe $20 or $25. On the turn, you bet $45 into a $76 pot with 4 players. Personally, I bet $60 to $75, in a big way BECAUSE it is a $1-2 game.

GL

werd. i havn't played much the last...meh 5 months now. Money isn't an issue...I would say that I still have a bit of the monster under the bed syndrome, at times..but I don't think this was all that. I wasn't thinking 100% clearly cause I was so tired...you know how you can really feel your tiredness? Kinda like your head is buzzing around...I quit shortly after this hand, prob an orbit or two, one cause it was so late and I was going to church in the morning, and two I wasn't making optimal plays or decisions. I def. think fatigue played into this hand bigtime..but other factors I diddn't look to much into.

I kind over analyzed the hand as I was going and then I just confused the hell out of myself.

I agree I could have bet more on the turn. I prob should have potted it there, but because I didn't, had I been thinking clearly and playing optimally I think I usually get it all there...but, I wasn't...oh well. I'll be the first to admit I dont play optimally or "perfectly" each hand, but I usually play and make better decisions than 80-90% of the players at the table. But after this 5 month hiatus..i do feel a little rusty in spots. I think this was a good hand, and session to get out of my system.

- Jordan

[myenemy]

werd. i havn't played much the last...meh 5 months now. Money isn't an issue...I would say that I still have a bit of the monster under the bed syndrome, at times..but I don't think this was all that. I wasn't thinking 100% clearly cause I was so tired...you know how you can really feel your tiredness? Kinda like your head is buzzing around...I quit shortly after this hand, prob an orbit or two, one cause it was so late and I was going to church in the morning, and two I wasn't making optimal plays or decisions. I def. think fatigue played into this hand bigtime..but other factors I diddn't look to much into.

I kind over analyzed the hand as I was going and then I just confused the hell out of myself.

I agree I could have bet more on the turn. I prob should have potted it there, but because I didn't, had I been thinking clearly and playing optimally I think I usually get it all there...but, I wasn't...oh well. I'll be the first to admit I dont play optimally or "perfectly" each hand, but I usually play and make better decisions than 80-90% of the players at the table. But after this 5 month hiatus..i do feel a little rusty in spots. I think this was a good hand, and session to get out of my system.
- Jordan

80-90%, that's better than like 75% of the people who actually make money playing. Good session to get out of your system, particularly since you won.
My brother, is one of those people who thinks he's way better than he is and plays like once every 6 months, I dont even bother trying to explain to him that no matter how much you've read, being out of practice makes it extremely difficult to book a win.

[BoBetter]

This is one of those situations that we all find ourselves in, when deep stacked. It's the "I think I'm good here, but just in case I'm going to just call, because I don't want to get stacked" Obviously, you probably should have pushed here, because most of the time you're good. So, over time, you are losing money by not pushing here. Again, obvious.

My thing, is that sometimes, by playing a little more conservative against another big stack, you're controlling the game and psychologically it may be ok, not to push here. Your opponent may take it easy on you in later hands. For example, when I'm a deep stack, I'm always gunning for the other "good players" with a big stack. I constantly call their raises in position with marginal hands hoping to flop huge and take their stack.

Lastly, I like the flop bet of $15, but I think you should have bet at least 2/3'rds the pot on the turn. Mathmatically it's a better amount for making some draws unprofitable, and it would have defined your hand a little better. I don't think you're as lost in this hand if your turn bet is larger. I also think that on the river, if you lead out you can set the price, and possibly induce a bluff from the A3.

Checking this river blind and your river check are the exact reasons why you were lost in this hand.

I think if you put in a bigger bet on the turn, you wouldn't have faced a raise, and you most likely lead out on the river. And frankly, that's the way you want to play this hand in my opinion, especially when you were confused as to what the other guy had. Define your hand and put him to the test.

[Jordan]

80-90%, that's better than like 75% of the people who actually make money playing. Good session to get out of your system, particularly since you won.
My brother, is one of those people who thinks he's way better than he is and plays like once every 6 months, I dont even bother trying to explain to him that no matter how much you've read, being out of practice makes it extremely difficult to book a win.

eh, i don't know why people think that...an indifference to fact is something i notice common amongst bad poker players.

I have been out of practice ("practice" to me was playing 6 or 7 days a week, lol), but I've never read a poker book, other than greensteins, ace on the river...and being better than 80-90% at the table is probably an overstatement, but honestly so many players are horrible live because that is the only time they play -- online my edge is smaller at 400nl and above because there are more better players, especially these days

I've grown so much emotionally by playing tons of hands online, going thru upswings, downswings...relying on poker as an income..it just changes you mentally..and makes you stronger. That's where i think I really have an edge over players, and if I get to play with them long enough, I'll exploit the holes in their game because they can't or don't adapt...they can't be honest with themselevs and constructively criticize their game.

- Jordan

edit -- I plan on going tonight to the club again to play (hopefully no less than 5 hours) I plan on taking a few redbulls to help me regain focus when I feel like it's wavering..if it does, that is...I finally think I'm over the jet lag from coming back from cambodia, so hopefully this weird fatigue thing is done with.

[Acid_Knight]

but I've never read a poker book, other than greensteins, ace on the river...

I liked Ace on the River.

I read a ton of books. Look at it this way. If you gain 1 useful thing from a $20 book that allows you to win 1 pot that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to win, then you have made a useful purchase.

I'd only recommend books that don't talk much about preflop play, becuase it's overdone.

Good reading:
Book of Bluffs by Matt Lessinger
Little Green Book, Little Blue Book by Phil Gordon (although some of the moves he makes seem retarded, at least he talks about a lot of different situations)
The Psychology of Poker - Alan Schoonmaker
Harrington on Holdem - if you play tournies of course.

I'm not a huge fan of SuperSystem I or II.

Two of the worst books ever written are Phil Hellmuth's Play Poker Like The Pros (who apparently play like people who've never sat at a poker table before) and Erick Lindgren's Making the Final Table. Both of these books will give you brain damage.

Good Non-Strat books:
Take me to the River
One of a Kind
The Professor, The Banker and The Suicide King
The Biggest Game in Town
Amarillo Slim in a World Full of Fat People

[offmandh]

also, this is kinda silly but Doyle Brunson's 50 Most Memorable Hands (or something) is pretty cool. There are some sick hands in there. One of the top ten hands is a 100k in pot in 2-7 where Doyle made a 7-5-3-2-A and this other guy made a 7-4-3-2-A. Dude reaches for the pot and drops dead. Paramedics come, Doyle takes the pot, and they play for 24 more hours. Anyways, it's silly but interesting. Also Jim McManus' Positively Fifth Street was cool

[Jordan]

I liked Ace on the River.

I read a ton of books. Look at it this way. If you gain 1 useful thing from a $20 book that allows you to win 1 pot that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to win, then you have made a useful purchase.

I'd only recommend books that don't talk much about preflop play, becuase it's overdone.

Good reading:
Book of Bluffs by Matt Lessinger
Little Green Book, Little Blue Book by Phil Gordon (although some of the moves he makes seem retarded, at least he talks about a lot of different situations)
The Psychology of Poker - Alan Schoonmaker
Harrington on Holdem - if you play tournies of course.

I'm not a huge fan of SuperSystem I or II.

Two of the worst books ever written are Phil Hellmuth's Play Poker Like The Pros (who apparently play like people who've never sat at a poker table before) and Erick Lindgren's Making the Final Table. Both of these books will give you brain damage.

Good Non-Strat books:
Take me to the River
One of a Kind
The Professor, The Banker and The Suicide King
The Biggest Game in Town
Amarillo Slim in a World Full of Fat People

if i read, i like to read things posted by current higher limit online players. not necc. that i think they are better than those other guys, but i feel like my brain waves are more on theirs.

however, if i were to get a book, i think i would get theory of poker by S.

not sure, but yea.

i pride myself on my reading abilitiy (lol at that in this certain hand) but regardless, i think book of bluffs would be cool to check out..I have looked at caro's book of tells..but i never played enough live to justify it...now that it seems I may start to...could come in handy...although playing with these guys thus far is like tell central. A person in my situation should not really have to stretch in looking for tells...most of these guys were painted with giving away their hands. Man, I love live poker. Well, I hate how slow it is, but everything else is +EV. Well, almost.

- Jordan

[Acid_Knight]

Book of Bluffs is actually one of the best books I've read about poker since it doesn't talk about hand standards or anything like that. The beginning part isn't too useful unless you're playing limit, but the 2nd half of the book just goes over like 40 or 50 bluffs and breaks them down, why they work, why they didn't and what aspects of them should you take away and try and use in your own game.

Caro's Book of Tells was kind of a waste of time for me. After already playing a lot of live poker, you already pick stuff up anyway and his book didn't realy help. I've owned Theory of Poker for like 6 months and haven't read it. I should probably do that.

[myenemy]

if i read, i like to read things posted by current higher limit online players. not necc. that i think they are better than those other guys, but i feel like my brain waves are more on theirs.

however, if i were to get a book, i think i would get theory of poker by S.

not sure, but yea.

i pride myself on my reading abilitiy (lol at that in this certain hand) but regardless, i think book of bluffs would be cool to check out..I have looked at caro's book of tells..but i never played enough live to justify it...now that it seems I may start to...could come in handy...although playing with these guys thus far is like tell central. A person in my situation should not really have to stretch in looking for tells...most of these guys were painted with giving away their hands. Man, I love live poker. Well, I hate how slow it is, but everything else is +EV. Well, almost.

- Jordan

Caro's book is just a bit too outdated. As I said, I play almost exclusively live and understanding basic tell theory, which I did get a lot from Caro, is absolutely +EV. Just this past week, it saved me a potentially huge pot. This dude, cocky, arrogant type, sits down and starts playing every hand. P.S. flop comes 533 and he's looking at it shaking his head like, "Oh look at this sh*te flop" Guy next to me takes him to the river and he tables T3. Me laughing inside all the time.

Anyway one other decent book that helped my game was Sklansky NLH. The standard knock is, "What does DS have to contribute to NLH?" but actually at the time it really shored up a weak point in my game, bet-sizing. Even though you guys are all bet-sizing heroes, I still recommend it. I felt incredibly comfortable with my bet-sizing after reading it. And the rest of it wasn't too bad either.