9 replies to this topic

[JDuo]

Final table of a MTT

9 players left, avg chip stack 140k, Hero 8th in chips /w 40k, 9th in chips ~30k

Blinds @ 6k/12k ~200 antes

Action:
Villain (~110k chip stack, solid player) UTG raises to 36k
folded around to Hero who is in the cutoff
Pushes all in for 40k (virtually calling the raise) with AQ offsuit.
Hero loses to Villain's 99

Hero's thought process:
Extremely short stacked (M ~2), can't wait any longer for a solid hand, AQ off is strong enough to make a stand

Hero post hand analysis:
The range of hands the Villain could of had. AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,99, AK, possibly AQ, KQ suited, probably not AJ. So basically, I'm only in good shape if the Villain has KQ suited or AJ, which isn't very likely. I'm dominated by the other strong holdings and a coinflip situation for JJ, TT,99.

Conclusion:
I didn't think very much of the range of hands of the Villain at the time, and was just happy to pick up AQ in such a short stacked situation and go All in.

Should I have waited for a better spot? when I have first in vigorish? But then a M of around 2 is so small, shouldn't I be happy to pick up AQ in that situation? Also, a difference in prize money was about $1000 each step up. 9th $1500 8th $2400 7th $3500. Should I have waited for the 9th in chips shortstack to make a move before I make one? Since I had around 10k more than him.

[SlackerInc]

But then a M of around 2 is so small, shouldn't I be happy to pick up AQ in that situation?

Yes. You did the right thing, you had a nearly 50/50 chance of doubling up, it just didn't work out. C'est la vie.

[tskillz187]

Conclusion:
I didn't think very much of the range of hands of the Villain at the time, and was just happy to pick up AQ in such a short stacked situation and go All in.


This is the correct conclusion. Although you should probably think of villains range. I can't fold AQ here with an M of 2. Don't let yourself get this short though, because you have to do things like this, obviously this doesn't apply if you were just crippled. But if it was because you were hanging on for the Final Table bubble, don't do it.

[TwoFourOffsuit]

What t said. Ideally, even with a short stack, I wouldn't call or raise all-in against a large early raise if I could help it, but with your stack this low and holding AQo, you pretty much had to push here.

[SlackerInc]

What t said. Ideally, even with a short stack, I wouldn't call or raise all-in against a large early raise if I could help it, but with your stack this low and holding AQo, you pretty much had to push here.

I liked what someone else posted about a similar hand: if you push an unopened pot low in the Red Zone (and with a low Q as well) with AQ, you don't just want the blinds (which only allows you to stagger on for another orbit as the shortstack), you want a caller so you can double up. In this case, you've already got your "caller" except that his range might even be greater than would be an actual caller (there's no such thing as a "bluff call"), so be thankful for the opportunity! If you win it, you're up at the high end of the Red Zone, your Q is a lot better, and your future pushes may get extra respect as well since the last hand they saw you show down was AQ.

[tskillz187]

I liked what someone else posted about a similar hand: if you push an unopened pot low in the Red Zone (and with a low Q as well) with AQ, you don't just want the blinds (which only allows you to stagger on for another orbit as the shortstack), you want a caller so you can double up. In this case, you've already got your "caller" except that his range might even be greater than would be an actual caller (there's no such thing as a "bluff call"), so be thankful for the opportunity! If you win it, you're up at the high end of the Red Zone, your Q is a lot better, and your future pushes may get extra respect as well since the last hand they saw you show down was AQ.

Yeah that was me, I'm pretty cool.

[ChrisRichey]

Standard.

[copernicus]

With the range you put villain on (using AJs for the "maybe AJ") you are a 60:40 dog and have almost exactly the right odds to call. I also think the range is a bit narrow. Some lower pairs might raise and some weaker Aces, especially suited Aces, might raise. Add on the small stack problem and this is an easy push.

[JDuo]

Thanks for your insight guys. Like what SLackerInc said, I'm happy to go all in (regardless of opening or calling all in) with AQo with a M of ~2.

I was a little confused after I got knocked out about:
1) maybe I should have waited for the shorter stack to make a move so I can move up in money (Because this was a $100 buy-in tourney where a move up in spots was a ~$1000 difference, which is significant to my bankroll at the moment. But if it were a $20, $30 tourney where the difference in prize money would have been like ~$100-$200, then I wouldn't even think about jsut moving up a couple spots, but go for the big top 3 cheese)

2) Calling all in where most likely my best scenario is a coin flip. But then you have to win (or get into) coinflips at this stage of the tournament don't you?

Another question:
At final tables where the blinds are so large relative to the stacks. What is a good strategy in terms of starting hand requirements? For example, say I doubled up to $100K (40K+40K+blinds+antes) with the AQo. Now a few hands later, a person opens for 3x so 36k, folds around to you, what range of hands can you call or raise with (other than monster hands)? I know position will matter dearly. Whether the villain raised from early, middle, late. But where do you draw the line as to what kind of hand to play or fold? Because if you choose to play this hand, your investing 1/3 of your chips.

I guess the question stems from playing larger buy-in tourneys where the move up in spots is a significant amount, where the other players around the table are pretty even stacked and thinking "Why should I make a move now with a semi strong-marginal hand, when 5-6 out of the remaning 8-9 are even in chips, i'll just wait for others to knock each other out so I can move up in money and then make a move later".

[copernicus]

this is the stage of the tourney where reads matter the most, and where you have the most opportunity to get reads, because so many hands go to showdown. I dont think hand range strategies are very viable in advance.

If moving up spots is significant to your bankroll (not relative to the buy ins) you will of course be more inclined to play conservatively. This is also the point where relative chip stacks becomes a big consideration (ala gigabets block theory). If your stack is similar to many others you would tend to be more conservative against them, and tight against the bigger stacks. If you have a decent chip lead over a group of opponents you can afford to be more aggressive with the "surplus" chips (against anyone, not just against the lower chip block), because those chips have less utility.

As you note, position is very important, because you can be more aggressive against players to your right because if you lose the hand youre in position to take them back. Some very advanced players will play "surplus chips" in later position even if they think they are behind an LMP and LP raiser if it is likely to induce calls from the blinds with ATC. They dont mind shifting chips from the blinds to players to their right, because the blinds have position on them in most hands.