13 replies to this topic

[Wingmaster05]

taken from The new oxford annotated bible, under Exodus ch 32, verses 25-28

When Moses saw that the people were running wild (for Aaron ahd let them run wild, to the derision of their enemies), then moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, "who is on the LORD'S side? Come to me!"" And all the sons of Levi gathered around him. He said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Put your sword on your side, each of you! Go back and froth from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbor.'" The sons of Levi did as Moses commanded , and about three thousand of the people fell on that day.


I'm pretty sure when I was a Christian that i would have glossed right over this passage. If someone came to me and said they spoke to God and then commanded me to kill my brother, friend and neighbor, i would have slapped him in the face. It's also very interesting to see that Aaron and the sons of Levi were worshipping the calf and yet they aren't the ones to be condemned.

But regardless, the point of the post was to ask someone if God commanded you to kill your brother/anyone, would you do it?

[11 to 1]

But regardless, the point of the post was to ask someone if God commanded you to kill your brother/anyone, would you do it?

Nah, I'd go see a therapist - God doesn't tell people to kill, so if I thought He did, I'd be really wrong someplace. Luckily we have Jesus to explain this all to us.

[Loismustdie]

Nah, I'd go see a therapist - God doesn't tell people to kill, so if I thought He did, I'd be really wrong someplace. Luckily we have Jesus to explain this all to us.

At this point in time we are commanded to put up our sword, and our new sword is the word. The answer to your question- absolutely. I have often thought that I was born in the wrong age, I would have made a fearless warrior. It would have been alot easier to live for God back then because what God required was a bit different. If you killed your brother,and God said it was what you were supposed to do, that was your higher calling, where would the guilt be? Sorrow, yes, but no guilt. You were doing the work of the lord.

Also, my love for turkey legs would make me awesome king material. I really think that I would have flourished in those times.

[Loismustdie]

taken from The new oxford annotated bible, under Exodus ch 32, verses 25-28

When Moses saw that the people were running wild (for Aaron ahd let them run wild, to the derision of their enemies), then moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, "who is on the LORD'S side? Come to me!"" And all the sons of Levi gathered around him. He said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Put your sword on your side, each of you! Go back and froth from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbor.'" The sons of Levi did as Moses commanded , and about three thousand of the people fell on that day.
I'm pretty sure when I was a Christian that i would have glossed right over this passage. If someone came to me and said they spoke to God and then commanded me to kill my brother, friend and neighbor, i would have slapped him in the face. It's also very interesting to see that Aaron and the sons of Levi were worshipping the calf and yet they aren't the ones to be condemned.

But regardless, the point of the post was to ask someone if God commanded you to kill your brother/anyone, would you do it?

Also, if I remember correctly Aaron was doing what the people had asked for. I will have to look at the passage again.

[chrisuk_sw]

Nah, I'd go see a therapist - God doesn't tell people to kill, so if I thought He did, I'd be really wrong someplace. Luckily we have Jesus to explain this all to us.

Is this the same Jesus that wants to condemn most people to eternity in hell-fire? (Matthew 25:41, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
The same Jesus that will send Angels to perform this deed? (Matthew 13:41-42)
The same Jesus that criticised the Pharisees for not executing disobedient children? (Matthew 15:3-7)
etc etc

Yup, we're lucky to have Jesus

[11 to 1]

Is this the same Jesus that wants to condemn most people to eternity in hell-fire? (Matthew 25:41, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
The same Jesus that will send Angels to perform this deed? (Matthew 13:41-42)
The same Jesus that criticised the Pharisees for not executing disobedient children? (Matthew 15:3-7)
etc etc

Yup, we're lucky to have Jesus

I bumped the thread for you where it is explained that Jesus never said anyone was going to "hell." And you've completely misrepresented Matthew 15:3-7, Jesus never said anyone should execute any children. I suppose if you insist on your idea I'll have to take the time to go through it, but I haven't got time now.

But you keep 'em coming, always nice to have a Jesus-hater in our midst so the truth can be told.

[brvheart]

taken from The new oxford annotated bible, under Exodus ch 32, verses 25-28

When Moses saw that the people were running wild (for Aaron ahd let them run wild, to the derision of their enemies), then moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, "who is on the LORD'S side? Come to me!"" And all the sons of Levi gathered around him. He said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Put your sword on your side, each of you! Go back and froth from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbor.'" The sons of Levi did as Moses commanded , and about three thousand of the people fell on that day.
I'm pretty sure when I was a Christian that i would have glossed right over this passage. If someone came to me and said they spoke to God and then commanded me to kill my brother, friend and neighbor, i would have slapped him in the face. It's also very interesting to see that Aaron and the sons of Levi were worshipping the calf and yet they aren't the ones to be condemned.

But regardless, the point of the post was to ask someone if God commanded you to kill your brother/anyone, would you do it?

The real question is if the creator of the universe appeared to you and told you to do something... would you disobey?

Nah, I'd go see a therapist - God doesn't tell people to kill, so if I thought He did, I'd be really wrong someplace. Luckily we have Jesus to explain this all to us.

This is a good answer also.

[brvheart]

Is this the same Jesus that wants to condemn most people to eternity in hell-fire? (Matthew 25:41, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
The same Jesus that will send Angels to perform this deed? (Matthew 13:41-42)
The same Jesus that criticised the Pharisees for not executing disobedient children? (Matthew 15:3-7)
etc etc

Yup, we're lucky to have Jesus

[personal insult][/personal insult] Did you even read the passages that you quoted? For instance, the Matthew 15:3-7 passage to mentioned... Jesus was saying that to prove an ironic point... because the Jews WERE supposed to kill disobedient children according to the old testament law and they were not following that law and yet they were condemning Jesus for breaking other laws... try reading stuff you post dude. Verse 7 is Jesus laughing at them for being hypocrites.

"7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:"

[chrisuk_sw]

I bumped the thread for you where it is explained that Jesus never said anyone was going to "hell." And you've completely misrepresented Matthew 15:3-7, Jesus never said anyone should execute any children. I suppose if you insist on your idea I'll have to take the time to go through it, but I haven't got time now.

But you keep 'em coming, always nice to have a Jesus-hater in our midst so the truth can be told.

Jesus never said anyone was going to hell?

Matthew 7
18: A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19: Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 10
28: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One (God) who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 11
20: Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.
21: "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22: But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
23: And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
24: But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

Matthew 13
40: "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41: The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42: They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18
7: "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!
8: If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
9: And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Matthew 25
40: "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41: "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
...
46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Mark 9
43: If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
45: And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
47: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
48: where " 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
49: Everyone will be salted with fire

Luke 3
9: The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."
...
17: His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Luke 13
23: Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them,
24: "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
25: Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26: "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27: "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
28: "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

John 15
6: If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

2 Thessalonians 1
6: God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7: and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8: He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9: They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

Revelation 20
15: If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

.....

I read the thread referenced in your "Jesus never said anyone was going to hell thread" which shed little light on the matter. So Hell is not the fiery pit of Hades... but instead is the fiery pit of Gehenna. Big Difference.

Let's face it, Jesus spoke deliberately in parables in order that we not understand him, (Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10) so saying that we are lucky to have Jesus to explain anything to us is patently ridiculous.

[Wingmaster05]

The real question is if the creator of the universe appeared to you and told you to do something... would you disobey?
This is a good answer also.

That probably is the better question; and i would say if it violated my morals, then yes i would disobey. I would not kill my brother or my friends if God commanded me, and it's not for the fear of punishment afterwards (the earthly kind). What am I supposed to do? He gave me a brain and free will to think it out myself; and if he's trying to break my moral code (heck, it's part of his code too) then I will stand firm.

Part of the problem for me is that the concept of Heaven and Hell seems so silly. Firstly, if we are to assume that to make it to heaven you must accept Christ and that alone, then God sholud have made the world so EVERY human being, from the moment of consciousness, is made aware of this Eternal Choice of Heaven or Hell. Otherwise you are casting out billions of souls that have come through this world since the death of the Lord that have learned nary a word about Jesus. And it wouldn't be fair that they get a free pass because the gospels were never presented to them while alive, where as people who did get minor introductions but cast it aside receive Hell. So, the moment life begins for a person they must be made aware of the most important decision of their eternal life. (what I'm also saying here is that for me to be a Christian once again i would have to be a 5 point Calvinist as well...)

But even then...If my strange situation was the case, who would actually choose bad deeds and go to Hell? Or in the example you gave Braveheart, where the Creator speaks to you (and let's say its apparent that the Heaven and Hell concept is very real and very true), my God, who would ever not accept Jesus? It doesn't even seem like free will! You know? I get the feeling most of y'all will jump on this part and say everyone is a sinner and some will consider the infamous line "it's better to reign in hell than serve in heaven", but I feel if everyone person knew the severity of the situation it would be a no brainer.

[brvheart]

That probably is the better question; and i would say if it violated my morals, then yes i would disobey. I would not kill my brother or my friends if God commanded me, and it's not for the fear of punishment afterwards (the earthly kind). What am I supposed to do? He gave me a brain and free will to think it out myself; and if he's trying to break my moral code (heck, it's part of his code too) then I will stand firm.

Part of the problem for me is that the concept of Heaven and Hell seems so silly. Firstly, if we are to assume that to make it to heaven you must accept Christ and that alone, then God sholud have made the world so EVERY human being, from the moment of consciousness, is made aware of this Eternal Choice of Heaven or Hell. Otherwise you are casting out billions of souls that have come through this world since the death of the Lord that have learned nary a word about Jesus. And it wouldn't be fair that they get a free pass because the gospels were never presented to them while alive, where as people who did get minor introductions but cast it aside receive Hell. So, the moment life begins for a person they must be made aware of the most important decision of their eternal life. (what I'm also saying here is that for me to be a Christian once again i would have to be a 5 point Calvinist as well...)

But even then...If my strange situation was the case, who would actually choose bad deeds and go to Hell? Or in the example you gave Braveheart, where the Creator speaks to you (and let's say its apparent that the Heaven and Hell concept is very real and very true), my God, who would ever not accept Jesus? It doesn't even seem like free will! You know? I get the feeling most of y'all will jump on this part and say everyone is a sinner and some will consider the infamous line "it's better to reign in hell than serve in heaven", but I feel if everyone person knew the severity of the situation it would be a no brainer.

You are correct... which is why I must tell everyone I know as soon as possible.

[11 to 1]

I read the thread referenced in your "Jesus never said anyone was going to hell thread" which shed little light on the matter. So Hell is not the fiery pit of Hades... but instead is the fiery pit of Gehenna. Big Difference.

This would be better in the thread that has this topic, but..... first, I always love it when people post all the passages that seem to refer to hell as if I'd never seen them. OK, so, starting with Hades. "Hades" does not mean "hell." Not in Greek. It just means the afterlife. The Jews has no conception of a place of punishment after death, so, Jesus was not telling anyone with the parables that this would happen. The Jews did believe in reincarnation as evidenced in the passages where Jesus asks, "Who do people say that I am?" and they answer with various prophets of old. Jesus also says John the Baptist is Elijah, so we know Jesus affirms reincarnation. Early Christians also believed this, it was the Romans (pagans) who, after Constantine, insisted on the doctrine of the tripartite afterlife - with a hell. Now, on to the parables:

Let's face it, Jesus spoke deliberately in parables in order that we not understand him, (Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10) so saying that we are lucky to have Jesus to explain anything to us is patently ridiculous.

No, Jesus spoke in parables so that those who could understand, would understand. ("Let he who has ears to hear, hear!") Jesus was contradicting both the Roman beliefs and the powers that be of the Hebrews, so He spoke in "code" (parables) in public so that His teachings could be innocently passed along as stories and explained in private (as He did with His disciples) if necessary. You have to put this in the context of the times.

Gehenna is right here. You're in it. It's very clear that what Jesus said was, "If you follow me, I will show you the way out of bondage, (the trap of continual reincarnation) as when He said: "At the gates of hades you will have the power."

[chrisuk_sw]

No, Jesus spoke in parables so that those who could understand, would understand. ("Let he who has ears to hear, hear!") Jesus was contradicting both the Roman beliefs and the powers that be of the Hebrews, so He spoke in "code" (parables) in public so that His teachings could be innocently passed along as stories and explained in private (as He did with His disciples) if necessary. You have to put this in the context of the times.

No, Jesus spoke in parables to deliberately obscure his meaning.

Mark 4
9: Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
10: When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables.
11: He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
12: so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Luke 8
8:.... When he said this, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
9: His disciples asked him what this parable meant.
10: He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, " 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'"

Jesus in these passages says quite clearly that he is speaking in parables so that those on the outside do not understand him, otherwise they might turn to him and be forgiven! What a terrible thing to do! If he had the truth, he would speak it clearly so that everyone could understand it and have the chance at forgiveness, not just those on the inside. Context be damned, you're making the extraordinary claim that this guy is a supernatural being...

[11 to 1]

No, Jesus spoke in parables to deliberately obscure his meaning.

Mark 4
9: Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
10: When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables.
11: He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
12: so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Luke 8
8:.... When he said this, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
9: His disciples asked him what this parable meant.
10: He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, " 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'"

Jesus in these passages says quite clearly that he is speaking in parables so that those on the outside do not understand him, otherwise they might turn to him and be forgiven! What a terrible thing to do! If he had the truth, he would speak it clearly so that everyone could understand it and have the chance at forgiveness, not just those on the inside. Context be damned, you're making the extraordinary claim that this guy is a supernatural being...

Actually, chrisuk, I'm making the rather ordinary claim that He, and you, are exactly the same being - He just knows what that really is and you don't. If I get time later today, if not I'll do it tomorrow, I'll translate the Greek from Mark and we'll see if you are correct in thinking Jesus wanted people left behind. Since He clearly says elsewhere that God wants everyone to be saved, I'm pretty sure we'll find this an interestting exercise and quite revealiing.