19 replies to this topic

[socalpoker_j]

Had encountered a deepstack to my right who was very active in trying to control pots in position and make probing stabs at them out of position in order to gain information. He made a lot of light 3 bet shoves/calls and led dangerous boards with hands like 2 pair, bottom set, etc. We've mixed it up in a few smallish pots, with me betting light in position and coming over the top of his feeler bets, but nothing for stacks yet.

His PTO numbers over 120 hands with him at 65.35/5/.35

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $196.90
CO: $757.35
sdgolca: $331.30
SB: $415.90
BB: $72

Pre-flop: (5 players) sdgolca is Button with 6 3 A 5
UTG folds, CO calls, sdgolca raises to $9, 2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: A J 5 ($21, 2 players)
CO checks, sdgolca bets $10.5, CO raises to $52.5, sdgolca calls.

What does the raise on the flop represent in your eyes with a player that likes to be very active in pots regardless of position?

Turn: 7 ($126, 2 players)
CO bets $126, sdgolca raises all-in $269.8, CO calls.

Turn?

River: 9 ($665.6, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $665.6)

Discuss how you play this hand and proceed through each street.

[navybuttons]

this is a tough one but i'll try to stab at it. obviously, the play up to his flop raise is standard. i do this pf raise and flop bet probably 100% of the time.

i wasn't quite sure what you said about whether or not he tries to control pots out of position, or if he's willing to really mix it up out of position.

if he's not willing to mix it up out of position the answer is obvious: he has a hand he's not worried about building a big pot with (JJQK w/ spades, or something similar, maybe as light as KQJ10 w/ spades).

i'm not quite sure what to do against someone who is willing to go crazy OOP (like if he had naked JJ here).

i still think more often than not we're beat on this turn if we weren't already crushed on the flop. it seems really weird to call this flop if we're going to fold this turn but that's what my gut tells me.

i'd be interested to hear what simo, JKOS, and ahosang say.

[socalpoker_j]

this is a tough one but i'll try to stab at it. obviously, the play up to his flop raise is standard. i do this pf raise and flop bet probably 100% of the time.

i wasn't quite sure what you said about whether or not he tries to control pots out of position, or if he's willing to really mix it up out of position.

if he's not willing to mix it up out of position the answer is obvious: he has a hand he's not worried about building a big pot with (JJQK w/ spades, or something similar, maybe as light as KQJ10 w/ spades).

i'm not quite sure what to do against someone who is willing to go crazy OOP (like if he had naked JJ here).

i still think more often than not we're beat on this turn if we weren't already crushed on the flop. it seems really weird to call this flop if we're going to fold this turn but that's what my gut tells me.

i'd be interested to hear what simo and ahosang say.

I saw him numerous times check, raise-- float with air oop and then try to take the pot away if the drawing card hit (flush gets there, straight etc). I had a pretty good feeling of where I was at in this hand against his range.

[navybuttons]

I saw him numerous times check, raise-- float with air oop and then try to take the pot away if the drawing card hit (flush gets there, straight etc). I had a pretty good feeling of where I was at in this hand against his range.

holy ****!

i'll have to think about it some more.

[BudBundy]

Consider he has a flush. Doesn't it look suspicious for a tricky guy like you described to play his flush so straightforwardly?

Your flop call screams weakness to me. You wouldn't call flop with a set when the flush draw is there , you would re-pot. Then why is he in such a hurry to take that pot away if he has a good flush while he is against 4 outs at most? Wouldn't he take a little risk and bet less to be called by two pairs or a weaker flush for maximum value? I think with flop call he puts you on exactly what you have. Because of your flop call , he thinks he can make you lie down your two pairs , weak flush etc.

If you ask me , I put it all in on flop. We will win the pot right there or win it at the showdown against AJ , A5 , NFD more times we get called and lose it at the showdown. Rarely he will have Top Two with flush draw but it happens. I am willing to take that risk.

Also Sklansky says calling is the worst option of the three , raising being the best

[bdc30]

If you ask me , I put it all in on flop.

I was thinking just that. If your 2 pair is not best, you likely have outs

[ahosang]

It's a bit tricky. That's what LAGS do.
You could be about 50% on the flop here reasonably, although against the worst cases, you're as low as about 10%. of course the way you describe him, you could be crushing him. Close to being a raise-or-fold, but not absolutely.

A call is slightly weak, but not as bad as it seems, given the opponent. As played, what can we make of this turn bet??
Bundy gave a point about the flush, and navybuttons too. He might be trying to outbet you. Or maybe he has it!

As others said, maybe re-raising the pot on the flop is the best option against the range of hands he apparently does this with, especially if there's any chance of decent fold equity. If you were going to be all-in on most turns, i don't see why you didn't just shove on the flop. I suppose it depends on how much you believe he'd bluff away his chips...

[navybuttons]

Your flop call screams weakness to me. You wouldn't call flop with a set when the flush draw is there , you would re-pot.

i feel way out of league on this one, but i'll respond to certain points in this.

i wouldn't re-pot with a naked set of aces there on the flop. i the way i play i would smooth call and wait for a safe turn, so i can't assume he automatically can put me on a hand that weak. maybe this is one of my many leaks.

Because of your flop call , he thinks he can make you lie down your two pairs , weak flush etc.

i believe that long term, i'm going to stack him more often than he will stack me if he plays this way.

Also Sklansky says calling is the worst option of the three , raising being the best

it may be a leak of mine, but i call here all day. the only hand i shove w/ here is KQ10 w/ spades.

when i have position i like to use it. shoving gives away my advantage.

If you were going to be all-in on most turns, i don't see why you didn't just shove on the flop. I suppose it depends on how much you believe he'd bluff away his chips...

i agree with this.

i don't know the correct way to play it (it's obviouslyvery difficult) but the way i play it is smooth call the flop and fold the turn. if he bluffed us, i'm okay with that and will find better spots to stack him.

[socalpoker_j]

It's a bit tricky. That's what LAGS do.
You could be about 50% on the flop here reasonably, although against the worst cases, you're as low as about 10%. of course the way you describe him, you could be crushing him. Close to being a raise-or-fold, but not absolutely.

A call is slightly weak, but not as bad as it seems, given the opponent. As played, what can we make of this turn bet??
Bundy gave a point about the flush, and navybuttons too. He might be trying to outbet you. Or maybe he has it!

As others said, maybe re-raising the pot on the flop is the best option against the range of hands he apparently does this with, especially if there's any chance of decent fold equity. If you were going to be all-in on most turns, i don't see why you didn't just shove on the flop. I suppose it depends on how much you believe he'd bluff away his chips...

As strange as it may seem, I honestly felt that I had the best hand, redraw (yes, with a 6 high flush draw) and that if a spade, A, basically any scare card came off that he was going to move no matter what. He really had only one gear and that was "Raise pot, bet pot, and shove". I felt that this was the best recourse to get all of his chips, as I was miles ahead and that he was very prone to bluffing. I think you hit everything spot on especially the last part. Interesting discussion so far, I'll post up some more hands from the Challenge at 2/4, 3/6, and 5/10 later.

[BudBundy]

i feel way out of league on this one, but i'll respond to certain points in this.

i wouldn't re-pot with a naked set of aces there on the flop. i the way i play i would smooth call and wait for a safe turn, so i can't assume he automatically can put me on a hand that weak. maybe this is one of my many leaks.
i believe that long term, i'm going to stack him more often than he will stack me if he plays this way.
it may be a leak of mine, but i call here all day. the only hand i shove w/ here is KQ10 w/ spades.

when i have position i like to use it. shoving gives away my advantage.
i agree with this.

i don't know the correct way to play it (it's obviouslyvery difficult) but the way i play it is smooth call the flop and fold the turn. if he bluffed us, i'm okay with that and will find better spots to stack him.

Ok you lost me a couple of times with this post. I know you are a good player that's why i thought about it for a while still couldn't figure it out.

How is call/folding with top set is a better play than putting it all in on flop as a good favourite? I think in a shorthanded table , in a heads up pot , waiting for a safe turn with top set is extremely weak. Especially against an aggressive player.

Isn't position an advantage to maximize our profits and minimize our losses? By calling we are doing neither. We are giving up the chance to take the pot right there. We are giving him a cheap card.

[navybuttons]

Ok you lost me a couple of times with this post. I know you are a good player that's why i thought about it for a while still couldn't figure it out.

How is call/folding with top set is a better play than putting it all in on flop as a good favourite? I think in a shorthanded table , in a heads up pot , waiting for a safe turn with top set is extremely weak. Especially against an aggressive player.

Isn't position an advantage to maximize our profits and minimize our losses? By calling we are doing neither. We are giving up the chance to take the pot right there. We are giving him a cheap card.

maybe you're right. it wouldn't be the first time i was wrong. i think it's player dependant. top set is just not always a favorite and i feel i can sniff out the times when it's a coinflip and when i'll be able to get my money in much better on the turn and when i can fold the turn. again, i don't know if this is correct, it's just the way i play. it's definately up for debate and i'm willing to accept criticism about it.

this is a divergence from the orignal question (which i'm not even sure of anymore). i guess the orignal question is more of a feel type one of "will this villain bluff away his chips?"

edit: i think you're right, if hero had aces here re-potting the flop is probably best.

[ahosang]

Hmmm, with naked top set, you have to shove regardless of who villain is. You can raise up to about 160. This puts money in as favourite against Ks Js Q T(if villain puts you all-in), and puts us in a near-infallible position on the turn(if he just calls).

If we raise and are called:
Stack-sizes dictate that it's only incorrect to call(all-in) if villain hits str8-flush or quads. We have pot-odds to call against a str8 or flush, and are correct to bet all-in on UI turns.
We make very,very few mistakes. As for boating up, position may well play a further part in getting villain to make a mistake.

If we just call with top set, we may make any of a number of mistakes on the turn, such as:
(i) calling a pot-size bet as a 23% dog(if villain makes his flush/str8), if villain won't pay up on the river.
(ii) bluffing into a made str8 or flush on the turn or river(dead)
(iii) Giving villain a free card - instead of laying him 5-1 when he has a set - because we're worried about the card.
(iv) getting bluffed on scare card turns
(v) folding villain when he's way behind by betting at a lower set or 2 pair on a str8/flush turn

Villain may correctly fold to any paired board if he's drawing to str8 or flush. We don't get any more money some of the time we hit.
There are also 12 turn cards where villain is absolutely correct to call a pot-size bet with str8/flush draw.

Re-raising with top set is simplest and best against any range of opponents.

[ahosang]

This hand is a little different because of the non-nut nature of our hand, the type of opponent, and so on. You could make arguments for calling, but a raise might be slightly better. I wouldn't say it's critical.
Depends on our estimation of his potential turn actions...

[navybuttons]

Re-raising with top set is simplest and best against any range of opponents.

got it, thanks for the info.

there is definately a lot of leaks in my game and while my hand reading and position play are my strongest assets, i've never learned certain fundamentals. i can't bring myself to finish slothrum's book.

obviously this hand is different than a naked top set, and the discussions only lightly apply, but this has been a good discussion, even though the answer to the OP seems 100% read based.

[socalpoker_j]

got it, thanks for the info.

there is definately a lot of leaks in my game and while my hand reading and position play are my strongest assets, i've never learned certain fundamentals. i can't bring myself to finish slothrum's book.

obviously this hand is different than a naked top set, and the discussions only lightly apply, but this has been a good discussion, even though the answer to the OP seems 100% read based.

Should I post the hand results?

FullTiltPoker Game #2011619683: Table Coburn (6 max) - $1/$2 - Pot Limit Omaha - 22:41:28 ET - 2007/03/17
Seat 2: zepatron ($757.35)
Seat 3: sdgolca ($331.30)
Seat 4: ShortBusBully ($415.90)
Seat 5: TZ14 ($72)
Seat 6: COYS ($196.90)
ShortBusBully posts the small blind of $1
TZ14 posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sdgolca [6s 3s Ad 5d]
COYS folds
zepatron calls $2
sdgolca raises to $9
ShortBusBully folds
TZ14 folds
zepatron calls $7
*** FLOP *** [As Jh 5s]
zepatron checks
sdgolca bets $10.50
zepatron raises to $52.50
sdgolca calls $42
*** TURN *** [As Jh 5s] [7s]
zepatron bets $126
sdgolca raises to $269.80, and is all in
zepatron calls $143.80
sdgolca shows [6s 3s Ad 5d]
zepatron shows [8c 3d 6c 8h]
*** RIVER *** [As Jh 5s 7s] [9c]
sdgolca shows a flush, Ace high
zepatron shows a straight, Nine high
sdgolca wins the pot ($662.60) with a flush, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $665.60 | Rake $3
Board: [As Jh 5s 7s 9c]
Seat 2: zepatron showed [8c 3d 6c 8h] and lost with a straight, Nine high
Seat 3: sdgolca (button) showed [6s 3s Ad 5d] and won ($662.60) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 4: ShortBusBully (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: TZ14 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: COYS didn't bet (folded)

[navybuttons]

sick.

i faced a player similar to this tonight where he floated me OOP and c/r the turn (i had second nut straight and set). i laid down to his river shove thinking there is no way he didn't have the nut straight. he showed a bluff and i stacked him 3 orbits later w/ top and bottom pair. he had COMPLETE AIR and was drawing to runner runner.

great hand!

raising preflop seems SO standard to the way i play. i browsed the 2+2 PLO forum today and i don't think anyone over there plays this way.

[ahosang]

got it, thanks for the info.

there is definately a lot of leaks in my game and while my hand reading and position play are my strongest assets, i've never learned certain fundamentals. i can't bring myself to finish slothrum's book.

obviously this hand is different than a naked top set, and the discussions only lightly apply, but this has been a good discussion, even though the answer to the OP seems 100% read based.

Do you mean ralph slotboom?? I heard it was a good book, and judging from his Cardplayer articles, he is very mathematical, which sometimes PLO is - like the question of re-raising with top set.

But i haven't bought it because i was put off by thinking maybe it was a short-stack book. I like deep-stacks in PLO, because with pot-manipulation and position, you can play bigger pots more correctly. I've only ever skimmed through Reubens' book - I'd like to buy and read a really good PLO book.

raising preflop seems SO standard to the way i play. i browsed the 2+2 PLO forum today and i don't think anyone over there plays this way.

Maybe you don't make raise-or-fold calculations enough when stack-sizes and pot-odds(sometimes thinking one street ahead) are critical. Maybe there are some extra edges you're not pushing.

But you know the business about 'big pots in position', and that's worth a lot in PLO. And if you're always in position, you can make slightly weaker calls and play call-bluff against the right opponents, or maybe milk the money out of an OOP opponent or whatever.
2+2 ain't that good apart from stud and 'other poker'. Occasionally some good posters post in PLO/8, but usually a lot of the other comments are a bit weak. The threads are generally diluted, so i don't even read it much.

The way i read your posts, sounds like your a real PLO type who likes to outplay opponents in position. But maybe you should look into recognising situations where you can manipulate the pot in order to minimize your errors and maximise your opponents' errors. In this way you also create more dead money. You can add a weapon to your armoury.
It's variance-increasing, but you should increase your winrate with the right hands. It's about the nature of the draw as well...

[ahosang]

Do you mean Rolf Slotboom??

FMP

[navybuttons]

The way i read your posts, sounds like your a real PLO type who likes to outplay opponents in position. But maybe you should look into recognising situations where you can manipulate the pot in order to minimize your errors and maximise your opponents' errors. In this way you also create more dead money. You can add a weapon to your armoury.
It's variance-increasing, but you should increase your winrate with the right hands. It's about the nature of the draw as well...

yes i did mean slothboom (or whatever).

i also felt it was mostly a shortstack book and thus it doesn't keep my attention that well.

i'm not quite sure what you mean by the above. are you saying i should be raising the button more?

if you are, i don't think i could raise the button any more than i do. i don't have poker tracker so i don't know how often i'm raising my button, but its A LOT. i c-bet HU a lot on dry boards and also am willing to check behind a lot on boards that are likely to hit opponents and take free cards/ keep the pot small, and either hit, pick up another draw, or manage the pot to be able to call a bet on the turn and hopefully stack him.

lemme know what you mean. i appreciate the help.

[ahosang]

No, looks like you're raising the button enough from most of the hands you post.

What I mean is certain situations on flop or turn where you can raise instead of calling - either in position or OOP - in order to achieve one or more of the following:
(1) Create a near-infallible position now, and for later streets.
(2) Create dead money and increase outs HU by raising a caller/bettor out
(3) Have one of your opponents put in more money as a dog if he make a big mistake and calls with a weak hand.
(4) Fold all your opponents and take down a decent-sized pot

Obviously calling is actually best a lot of the time. But there are occasions when I'm sure anything less than a raise is weak.
Just an aspect that I think is not talked about much, but I think is worth thinking about.