Phil Hellmuth Busto In Europe

[Seattleallstar 0]

http://tonyg.pokerworks.com/2007/03/24-hour-cash-game.html

[stevielarson 0]

not exactly busto but not shocked he got beaten down in another cash game.

[WowThats 0]

Even with all those bracelets many people in the poker circle think/believe Phil Hellmuth is an average player.

[Dratj 0]

Tony G seems like such a butt though.

[HermanKahn 0]

"Hellmuth was on my right in seat 7 and I was in seat 8 and could touch him. I really came after him and dominated him." Touch him? Is it just me, or WTF? I mean really, WTF? I laughed out loud."This will make amazing TV as I was back to my devastating best with many new lines. So everyone will have some fun when they hit YouTube."Yeah okay. I'm dying to see it too. LOL

[HermanKahn 0]

Even with all those bracelets many people in the poker circle think/believe Phil Hellmuth is an average player.

Cash games and tournaments require two entirely different mindsets re. your approach to risk and loss: you can be a mediocre cash player and a great tournament player and vice versa. Just as Phil ought to pipe down about overall skill until he improves his cash game, everyone without the bracelets really ought to shut the hell up thinking they can tell Phil jack **** about tournaments. Because you can't. And frankly, whenever you start to shoot your mouth off about it, you end up looking just as foolish as he does.Hellmuth is such an intelligent man, I don't know why he hasn't made the adjustments and dominated the crap out of everybody. I'm sure if he just sat down and took a good, hard look at why he's being beaten, he'd figure it out and turn it right back on them. Statistical decision theory 101, dude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimax

[Highlow16 0]

I think i would have a few bracelets if i started playing the WSOP in 84.

[WowThats 0]

Cash games and tournaments require two entirely different mindsets re. your approach to risk and loss: you can be a mediocre cash player and a great tournament player and vice versa. Just as Phil ought to pipe down about overall skill until he improves his cash game, everyone without the bracelets really ought to shut the hell up thinking they can tell Phil jack **** about tournaments. Because you can't. And frankly, whenever you start to shoot your mouth off about it, you end up looking just as foolish as he does.Hellmuth is such an intelligent man, I don't know why he hasn't made the adjustments and dominated the crap out of everybody. I'm sure if he just sat down and took a good, hard look at why he's being beaten, he'd figure it out and turn it right back on them. Statistical decision theory 101, dude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimax

Since you know Hellmuth so well maybe you could sit with him and help him adjust his game!! As my post states "many people in the poker world think/believe Hellmuth is a very average player". That does not have to include me or anyone else on this board, those are the words from people who play with him everyday.

[king_tanner 84]

I think i would have a few bracelets if i started playing the WSOP in 84.

Not likelyand he didnt start playing in 84

[mtdesmoines 2]

http://tonyg.pokerworks.com/2007/03/24-hour-cash-game.html

When asslips collide.

[CaneBrain 96]

He is one of the best tournament players there is. He also is just not good enough to sit in high stakes cash games without getting beat.Hadnt we already established this 1500 Hellmuth threads ago?

[HermanKahn 0]

I think i would have a few bracelets if i started playing the WSOP in 84.

I think I would have had mindblowingly spectacular three-way with F. Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald if I started having sex in 1920, but that's neither here nor there, now is it. Dream on, son...

That does not have to include me or anyone else on this board, those are the words from people who play with him everyday.

You have to take all that trash-talking crap with a grain of salt. Why? Because deep down, everybody wants to be him. That's right, I'll say it again: DEEP DOWN, IN THEIR HEART OF HEARTS, ALL THE PEOPLE WHO TRASH-TALK PHIL HELLMUTH WISH THEY COULD BE HIM. Who wouldn't? Admit it, it's true: all the glory, all the titles, all the mobney. LOL The more confident and arrogant Hellmuth is and the louder he is when berating people, the more everyone wants to knock the p*ss out of him. There's a reason Phil is the one player the entire world is fascinated and fixated on. It's really a simple matter of primate psychology: subdominant beta males trying to displace the alpha silverback by making the most noise. People aren't obsessed with Brunson and Chan in this way because they have class and play the game with dignity. But Phil? Ah, now THERE's the alpha monkey you really want to sink your teeth in! For the value of trash-talk "dominance displays" among chimpanzees in establishing the dominance hierarchy, check this out and see if it rings a bell:ABCs of Chimpanzee Behavior: Hierarchy & Dominance Displayshttp://www.lessonsforhope.org/abc/show_des...n.asp?abc_id=31Video of a chimpanzee dominance-aggression display that looks all the world like he just took a bad beat: obviously the other chimp doesn't even know how to spell banana. LOLhttp://www.discoverchimpanzees.org/behavio...harging_DisplaySomething to think about!

[psujohn 0]

Yes, tournament play is different from cash play. But look at the other two guys who hold 10 bracelets. I don't think Chan or Doyle would be called donators in cash games. I'm honestly at a bit of a loss as to why Hellmuth is so unable to perform in cash games. I suspect his cash game weakness is a bit overstated. Hellmuth claims that he's a winning player in cash games. The other side of it is that Hellmuth seems to play a tournament style that works best against weaker opponents. In a high-stakes cash game there aren't going to be 6 fish at the table.

[looshle 6]

Yes, tournament play is different from cash play. But look at the other two guys who hold 10 bracelets. I don't think Chan or Doyle would be called donators in cash games. I'm honestly at a bit of a loss as to why Hellmuth is so unable to perform in cash games. I suspect his cash game weakness is a bit overstated. Hellmuth claims that he's a winning player in cash games. The other side of it is that Hellmuth seems to play a tournament style that works best against weaker opponents. In a high-stakes cash game there aren't going to be 6 fish at the table.

Because he doesnt change how he plays. He's never going to be a cash game winner

[ChrisRichey 1]

I think I would have had mindblowingly spectacular three-way with F. Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald if I started having sex in 1920, but that's neither here nor there, now is it. Dream on, son...

WTF?

[PrtyPSux 0]

Because he doesnt change how he plays. He's never going to be a cash game winner

In san diego this is the conversation he had with Eli Elezra:Phil- "Yuuumm the games are going to get soo good in vegas next month"Eli- "yea"Phil- "I might play your game, I don't want to lose though, because I've beat that game everytime I played it, and if I lose everyone will say 'phil loses in cash games' and I don't want them to say that"Eli- "People see you run bad on HSP and then they say you are a losing player, whatever" (obv trying to be nice)Phil- "what limit will u guys be playing"Eli- "4/8 or 3/6" (I forget which he said)Phil- (right after he said he's never lost in the big game) "I'd rather do 2/4, maybe even 1/2 because I don't wan't to lose all of the money I make...I'm smart with my money"Eli- (clearly trying to get phil to play) "yea we can probably do that"..............................................................."you wanna play some chinese here if we bust?"He's a massive fish in any decent limit cash game, and just has way too big an ego to realize it...it's pretty amuzing.

[psujohn 0]

He's a massive fish in any decent limit cash game, and just has way too big an ego to realize it...it's pretty amuzing.

Yeah but there's certainly a bigger difference between NLHE tournament play and playing in the big game (stud8, o8, td, etc) vs NLHE tournament play and NLHE cash play. In other words I find it easy to see that a great NLHE tournament player would be a losing player in a mixed game limit format but still think that a great NLHE tournament player should be a very good NLHE cash player. NLHE cash isn't too different from the opening levels of a deepstack tournament.

[navybuttons 16]

In san diego this is the conversation he had with Eli Elezra:Phil- "Yuuumm the games are going to get soo good in vegas next month"Eli- "yea"Phil- "I might play your game.

anyone see the redundancy here?

[HermanKahn 0]

maybe you could sit with him and help him adjust his game!!

In the best of all possible worlds, that would be dreamy, but there are two big problems with that picture: 1) He'd never listen to me. Right now, I'm just a lowly PhD student and DoD think tank analyst--"what could an unproven little monkey like me possibly tell the reigning silverback about poker"? 2) a properly-done statistical analysis modeling the weaknesses in a player's game is worth a hell of a lot of money. Either they're going pay me well for it upfront, or about three years from now when I have my bankroll where it should be (f*** getting staked) I'm going to carve it straight out of their stacks at the table. Seeing as how I'm so dissatisfied with being just another dime-a-dozen beta chimp, I have a feeling it's going to be the latter. No doubt about it, in poker--as in the world of national security strategy, my natural habitat-- information is power, and he with the coldest blood wins.

[iveyfan30 0]

very simply put...phil is one of the best nl holdem tourney players ever...this is not debatable.....as a cash game player, im sure ppl pray phil sits with them ...i dont see what the debate is.

[HermanKahn 0]

Yes, tournament play is different from cash play. But look at the other two guys who hold 10 bracelets. I don't think Chan or Doyle would be called donators in cash games. I'm honestly at a bit of a loss as to why Hellmuth is so unable to perform in cash games.

Ego-driven information asymmetry: People take his game seriously enough to root out the weaknesses in it, whereas he starts from the assumption that everyone sucks so there's no need to make a real effort. He'd do well to remember a piece of advice from noted seven-card-stud player Richard Milhous Nixon: "Never underestimate your opponent's ability to underestimate you."

[iveyfan30 0]

I think i would have a few bracelets if i started playing the WSOP in 84.

so you think your chances are better at beating a tourney made up of 95% pro players<pre moneymaker wsop win> rather than one consisting of 60 % donkeys<wsop of today>?? makes perfect sense to me.

[psujohn 0]

very simply put...phil is one of the best nl holdem tourney players ever...this is not debatable.....as a cash game player, im sure ppl pray phil sits with them ...i dont see what the debate is.

The debate - and it's not a debate it's a discussion - as far as I'm concerned is that that combination should not be possible. It should not be possible to be "one of the best nl hold'em tourney players ever" and a NL hold'em cash game donkey. The skills involved are not so different. I wonder a bit if Phil's cash game donkyness is part self-fulfilling prophecy - much as I'm pretty sure his tourney success is at least part self-fulfilling prophecy. That is the pros who sit as his table in a cash game expect him to lose and play him hard and the non-pros in a tournament expect him to be able to "dodge bullets" and run in fear when he puts on the heat.

[doox 15]

I think Phil would do fine if he dropped down in limits and started figuring out his flaws instead of assuming that the fault lies with luck. I don't see him doing so, as his need for the spotlight wouldn't be fed in lower limits, and his ego is too big to do what other struggling cash game players do.

[iveyfan30 0]

The debate - and it's not a debate it's a discussion - as far as I'm concerned is that that combination should not be possible. It should not be possible to be "one of the best nl hold'em tourney players ever" and a NL hold'em cash game donkey. The skills involved are not so different. I wonder a bit if Phil's cash game donkyness is part self-fulfilling prophecy - much as I'm pretty sure his tourney success is at least part self-fulfilling prophecy. That is the pros who sit as his table in a cash game expect him to lose and play him hard and the non-pros in a tournament expect him to be able to "dodge bullets" and run in fear when he puts on the heat.

see , i disagree...i think non pros are NOT afraid of phil.. i think they see other pros on t.v. giving phil a hard time and they have it in their minds phil is a donkey< steve dannaman for ex.> phil isnt that pro that frightens ppl at the table for some reason<tourneys>. i would be afraid if phil was at my table, but i guess im in the minority. as far as the pros "playing him hard", they feel they can get phil to laydown the best hand if they apply pressure.he seems to get out of his comfort zone when playing too high, problem is his ego makes him keep trying..i dont see why he doesnt stick to tourney play where he is a dominating presense rather than play in a format where he is considered the fish at the table.