Jump to content


Bay 101 ..hand That Bugged Me


  • Please log in to reply
70 replies to this topic

#61 GrinderMJ

GrinderMJ

    Original

  • Members
  • 7,525 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 March 2007 - 01:09 AM

View PostPrtyPSux, on Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 1:16 PM, said:

but it looks so simple doesnt it? I'd post it on other forums but I'm way too lazy ...this is also officially the first hand I've ever PM'ed to DN, but he didnt read it..In general I think he might check fold, but maybe check call...I'm not sure..
It's so complex IMO, it makes me realize how much I still have to learn because I just literally can't think it through and come up with a good line for this hand.

#62 irishguy

irishguy

    Your weakness is disgusting to me.

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • Location:London, Ont

Posted 17 March 2007 - 07:14 AM

I like the check fold here. IMO check raising to $7000/fold to shove is so bad. You are giving up 40% of your stack. If you want to play this hand forward check calling is a decent line to me as you may be able to get to showdown w just the 7000 you would've reraised to anyways.
gmanshade owes me $500: Since July 6th, 2009 and counting.....


#63 shpaget

shpaget

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,603 posts
  • Location:Canada, eh
  • Interests:beer

Posted 17 March 2007 - 07:29 AM

View PostPrtyPSux, on Friday, March 16th, 2007, 2:36 PM, said:

It sent out a brief and clear message that your initial response to his post had the general pompous tone that most of the "I'm too good for this" 2+2'ers use when they answer some noob.
That's funny, because that's the general sense I got from his response...I've caught a whiff of elitism to what, in my mind, are very legitimate questions. The elitism comes from guys who look down upon them as "obvious" and "not worth the time to address".I also catch a whiff of elitism about "big stack tourneys"....I didn't just fall off the turnip truck...I've played hold'em (profitably I might add) for 15 years, and I've played several big stack tourneys (anywhere from starting 200-600 BB's - admittedly, nothing higher than $1500 buyin.) I have, however, done well across them all, so, either I know what I'm doing, or I'm an inherently lucky donkey - whatever you decide fits in your universe is fine with me.That aside...I recognize I have much to learn, which is why I post and read here. So, yes, it can piss me off when I run into some of the snobs and cliques and forum godfathers that slouch around both here and other forums.It also pisses me off that I can't get this hand out of my head, and I'm starting to wonder if the best way to play it is to hope you were in the bathroom when the cards were dealt and never know about it. :club:

Quote

essentially, no.. say you pick off the c-bet with a c/r 50% of the time, then that 50% of the time you're winning 5200 and your stack will be at 23k or so, the other 50% of the time it'll be at around 10k,
I personally think it's likely more like picking off the c-bet 75% of the time, but it may not matter.

Quote

who cares? why would I wan't to commit 5k more preflop to win 1600 and not define his hand at all....I think he's almost NEVER 4 bet shoving AA and KK here, so when he smooth calls then I'm 100% screwed, and now I have the lead in a big pot without even seeing a flop yet..no thank you...also, what if he decides to smooth call with AK? And what if he 4 bet shoves on me? even if I know he's almost never doing it with AA or KK I can't call, because I have 50bb's + left and I can for sure pick a better spot.
Depends on who it is...and how well he knows you, and if he respects your play. Someone like Hellmuth likely four-bets all-in because he expects you to be an idiot and call with TT or AK.Maybe it's wrong, but I can raise another 2500-3500 pf into the 3000 chip pot, and fold to a shove.

Quote

Does a flop lead not define villain's hand...or will he raise you with all the same hands he would have cb with?no.... most likely yes.
Thank you...that was the answer I was looking for.I'll go back to the question I asked on the first page of this thread.Can we represent a set and make villain fold AA/KK? Lead, and then push his raise? Check/push? (whether or not it's worth the risk is another ball of wax)
"Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand."

#64 tskillz187

tskillz187

    Great Tiger, you're next!

  • Members
  • 6,131 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brockport/Buffalo, NY

Posted 17 March 2007 - 08:12 AM

View Postirishguy, on Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 8:14 AM, said:

I like the check fold here. IMO check raising to $7000/fold to shove is so bad. You are giving up 40% of your stack. If you want to play this hand forward check calling is a decent line to me as you may be able to get to showdown w just the 7000 you would've reraised to anyways.
Only if we are ahead. And stay ahead through the river. I see the value in check/calling as Hoosier or PP put out a good post about it, but the value in the C/R is to end the hand right there on the flop and get an extra bet from villain. If he calls the C/R its over, if he reraises its over there is no showdown at all with the C/R. The problem with check/calling the flop to me has already been outlined by Hoos/PP as well. We are going to lay down the best hand a little too often IMO if he fires again on the turn. We are also letting worse hands catch up for free and not really knowing which cards are bad, I'm assuming they are A or K, but I doubt PPSux is the only one that enjoys raising, calling raises, and reraising with small pairs and suited connectors/gappers early. Everyone likes to do that because they are sneaky and you can hopefully catch someone stuck with a big pair, so I don't see villain's hand so easily defined as big pocket pair. It may be, but it might just be top pair or nothing so far, I really hate playing QQ this weak. I also don't like being OOP check/calling when we haven't defined his hand and are trying to keep the pot small, this is very difficult to do. It's not an enviable hand/spot for me to be in at all.I understand the value of keeping your stack in day 1 and that PPsux thought he could find better spots later, so it's a tough call. I don't mind laying down and looking for a better spot, but I think its dangerously close to overestimating your edge on the field.
Naismith (2:56:11 PM): fuckerflakeoutonmystakingnowmakingmillions

#65 irishguy

irishguy

    Your weakness is disgusting to me.

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • Location:London, Ont

Posted 17 March 2007 - 09:28 AM

View Posttskillz187, on Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 8:12 AM, said:

Only if we are ahead. And stay ahead through the river. I see the value in check/calling as Hoosier or PP put out a good post about it, but the value in the C/R is to end the hand right there on the flop and get an extra bet from villain. If he calls the C/R its over, if he reraises its over there is no showdown at all with the C/R. The problem with check/calling the flop to me has already been outlined by Hoos/PP as well. We are going to lay down the best hand a little too often IMO if he fires again on the turn. We are also letting worse hands catch up for free and not really knowing which cards are bad, I'm assuming they are A or K, but I doubt PPSux is the only one that enjoys raising, calling raises, and reraising with small pairs and suited connectors/gappers early. Everyone likes to do that because they are sneaky and you can hopefully catch someone stuck with a big pair, so I don't see villain's hand so easily defined as big pocket pair. It may be, but it might just be top pair or nothing so far, I really hate playing QQ this weak. I also don't like being OOP check/calling when we haven't defined his hand and are trying to keep the pot small, this is very difficult to do. It's not an enviable hand/spot for me to be in at all.I understand the value of keeping your stack in day 1 and that PPsux thought he could find better spots later, so it's a tough call. I don't mind laying down and looking for a better spot, but I think its dangerously close to overestimating your edge on the field.
I get the point about the check call opening hero up to get pushed off the best hand on later streets. My concern for the check raise is this everyone says check raise to 6000ish if you get a call shut down. Now lets say for example turn/river come 2,2 and villian checks behind on the turn then value bets the river for say 30% of the pot...do we really fold QQ in this spot as hero? Also with the fact that hero has been fairly aggro preflop can we really narrow down villians reraise in position to only AA,KK or AK could he not be taking advantage of this info with a much larger range? Maybe rereaise preflop with the QQ isn't a bad line to take.
gmanshade owes me $500: Since July 6th, 2009 and counting.....


#66 PrtyPSux

PrtyPSux

    WE TAKIN OVER!

  • Members
  • 6,108 posts
  • Location:WPT's

Posted 17 March 2007 - 01:26 PM

View Posttskillz187, on Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 3:12 PM, said:

but I think its dangerously close to overestimating your edge on the field.
You're not really overestimating your edge, you're just calculating that if you get 23k in chips you'll most likely be playing just about the same as if you have 17k, and if you think you can maintain your stack at 15-20k for the next 3 hrs you'll still have 30-40bb's coming into the 3rd hour and within those 3 hrs if you're not running like dog ****, you should be able to find one or two good spots to double up. C/R'ing the flop turns your QQ into 72 imo, it becomes a "pleeeease fold" bluff and I try my best to stay away from those on day one.

#67 PrtyPSux

PrtyPSux

    WE TAKIN OVER!

  • Members
  • 6,108 posts
  • Location:WPT's

Posted 17 March 2007 - 02:04 PM

View Postshpaget, on Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 2:29 PM, said:

That's funny, because that's the general sense I got from his response...
After your first comment, for sure, I'd do the same.

Quote

I also catch a whiff of elitism about "big stack tourneys"....
There is, for sure...People who haven't played them don't know exactly what approach to take, which is why I posted it here knowing most people haven't played a 10k event with a sick structure, I thought it'd be cool to get people thinking about this hand that plays so much different than online where I rarely would fold QQ pre. let alone call a rr and c/f. There are hundreds of pros who play 10k's and still don't understand how to approach them, just go rail one and see how many of the big names are busting on the 2nd or 3rd level in the name of "playing to win" which is nonsense in these things even if you run KK into AA or AA into a set. It's simple, you do not have to gamble or bluff big on day 1 unless you somehow got short relative to the bigger blinds at the end of the day, and in order to avoid getting short you just need to stay away from marginal situations. This situation, imho, is as marginal as they get. I personally think it's likely more like picking off the c-bet 75% of the time, but it may not matter.probably doesn't matter, like I said before, you're praying he folds either way so you're essentially bluffing 1/3 of your stack with no real read, that's a no no.Maybe it's wrong, but I can raise another 2500-3500 pf into the 3000 chip pot, and fold to a shove.but what do you do when he smooth calls? The reason I make small 3 bets like this vs good players with AA is because they can usually put me on QQ and make a move, it also makes it less likely for them to fold KK preflop, which isn't that uncommon in these deepstack tourneys. Basically I'm smooth calling here with any hand other than AA and with KK I MIGHT go broke or crippled if he bets the turn

Quote

Can we represent a set and make villain fold AA/KK? Lead, and then push his raise?..... Check/push? (whether or not it's worth the risk is another ball of wax)
lead/push...again, that's a move....we're not looking to make moves, I'd be more inclined to do this if I flop a flush draw..... Check/push is just silly.Regardless though, by now I'm almost 100% sure I want to c/f this hand and wait for a better spot...Think about it this way, in a cash game, I wouldn't c/f the flop because I can reload, but I certainly would be happier to get reraised with 810s than with QQ, I also wouldnt c/r the flop. I'd either c/c down or c/r the turn if he bet a blank.

#68 SlackerInc

SlackerInc

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,290 posts
  • Interests:tennis, music, politics (I'm a Democrat)
  • Favorite Poker Game:Tournament No-Limit Hold 'Em (2nd: Razz)

Posted 17 March 2007 - 03:03 PM

View Posttskillz187, on Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 10:12 AM, said:

I don't mind laying down and looking for a better spot, but I think its dangerously close to overestimating your edge on the field.
Indeed. And it doesn't do wonders for your table image either, which makes me wonder how much "smallball" you'll be able to play from that point out without getting run over again and again.

#69 grocery_mony

grocery_mony

    ^Douchebag^

  • Members
  • 9,082 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The great white north
  • Interests:poker,money

Posted 18 March 2007 - 12:14 PM

Any responce to your pm from Daniel JC?

#70 RDog

RDog

    I'm Barry Sanders bitches!!!

  • Members
  • 10,919 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County, CA

Posted 18 March 2007 - 03:36 PM

View Postshpaget, on Friday, March 16th, 2007, 9:51 AM, said:

Does a flop lead not define villain's hand...or will he raise you with all the same hands he would have cb with?
If I am villain, I raise any lead on the flop no matter what cards I have (including AK). Pretty sure most good players would so pretty much all it does is put JC into lead/fold mode (otherwise, he is putting his entire stack at risk). Leading a flop after the Villain was the agressor is incredibly weak most of the time.

#71 mk

mk

    nord-américain racaille

  • Members
  • 9,873 posts

Posted 19 March 2007 - 05:51 AM

View PostPrtyPSux, on Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 2:16 AM, said:

but it looks so simple doesnt it? I'd post it on other forums but I'm way too lazy ...this is also officially the first hand I've ever PM'ed to DN, but he didnt read it..In general I think he might check fold, but maybe check call...I'm not sure..
DN = station so this isn't a maybe lol.good thread.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users