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Bay 101 ..hand That Bugged Me


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#41 Ouch-8s

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 02:53 PM

I don't understand this hand at all....If villian has you beat, and has noticed your check/fold flop tendency, wouldn't he check and hope you'll bet the turn? Or is giving you an additional card too dangerous on this board (I think we can agree the board didn't hit him, right?)Do you play the hand the same, regardless of the board unless you hit your 2outer? No attempt to represent an Ace if one flops?I see that the stacks are awkward, and that you can't really determine where you are with much certainty without committing a significant portion of your stack. That makes an argument for a rere PF.Sometimes position seems relatively unimportant, but sometimes it is so clear how key it is. If you're going to play OOP, don't you want to put him to a significant decision, either by rere PF, or lead/reraise flop, or c/r flop?All that said you can c/f, still have 16.4k, and look for easier spots, but if you're going to do that, I'm not sure why you didn't just fold PF and have 17.4k? Purely for set value? Priced in? C/f is the safest play I suppose, but not as safe as folding to his min+ raise PF, which we cannot do.Meh. Trust your instincts, hope for the best, I guess, and assume you dodged bullets, baby.
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#42 HoosierAlum

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 04:28 AM

How many times prior to this hand had villian re-raised pf?Check-folding is fine, but it just seems weak to basically be playing QQ for set value only. Essentially by check folding that is what you're doing b/c this is a good flop for our hand.While I don't hate your line, I think check-calling is probably best. I'm assuming he is going to c/bet most flops, so check-call, evaluate on turn. On the turn I'm check /folding, as I doubt he is going to 2 barrel on this dry board. By c/c we also get a chance at a 2 outer (if we needed it), and perhaps most importantly it keeps the pot manageable. Although who knows if the turn pairs the bottom card or is some brick he could value bet 10s or Js but once he fires a 2nd barrel its time to shutdown most times imo. This line could be exploitable if he would v bet 10s or Js, or fire 2 barrels with air/draws...but I still think its best. I actually think c/raising is pretty bad. Sure it "lets us know where we are at" but it costs us 1/3 of our stack and builds a huge pot to find out when essentially we can find out the same info by check/calling flop and seeing what he does on the turn. So say you c/r to 6k, he folds everything we beat (JJ,1010, AK,AQ) and any air. He calls/jams with overpairs/sets. I really see little value with this play as it seems like the classic "He isn't folding anything better and he only calls with hands that beat us". IMO: c/c>c/f>c/r>leadingSo in a nutshell, c/c spike Q on turn and double up. :icon_biggrin:Oh and if he checks behind a blank turn and a blank river hits, check/call is best. He will probably v bet Js and 10s, and we might get him to fire out another bluff with whiffed overs/air when he would have just otherwise mucked to our river lead. Also leading river is bad because we are in a world of hurt if he decides to get sexy with a river bluff.




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#43 HoosierAlum

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 05:21 AM

This hand reminded me of a ZeeJustin post:http://forumserver.t...t...part=1&vc=1




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#44 copernicus

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 06:09 AM

Without reading the rest of the responses, your description seems to put the pro on an overpair to 9s most of the time, in which case youre a coinflip. He could be semibluffing a straight draw, but he also could have made an aggresively played (preflop) set or two pair out of 98s. Youre probably slightly ahead here overall, but given your approach to this tourney it doesnt seem like the time to tangle with him.Edit: After reading the responses, I hate a check raise to 6 or 7k, it commits far too much of the starting stack. There is a lot of validity to the point that calling preflop and folding here is equivalent to playing QQ for set value, and the board has no A, K or two suited, yet Im still thinking about folding? That leads me to think that the right line is reraising preflop. Its cheaper than check/raising, and takes control of the hand. If he reraises PF he's pretty solidly on AA,KK...he doesnt want to donk out at this time in the tourney against your AA, KK or QQ. If he calls the preflop raise and you get an A or K board you can get out. With this board you try and retain control of the hand with a lead bet.As played I still fold, but if you are going to play on I think check/push is better than the alternatives. You do have some fold equity on top of the times youre ahead, because sets and two pair are more in your range with the pf action than they are in his.
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#45 shpaget

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 06:23 AM

View PostHoosierAlum, on Friday, March 16th, 2007, 4:28 AM, said:

So say you c/r to 6k, he folds everything we beat (JJ,1010, AK,AQ) and any air. He calls/jams with overpairs/sets. I really see little value with this play as it seems like the classic "He isn't folding anything better and he only calls with hands that beat us".
Why do people continually misuse this idiom?This does not hold entirely true when we are on the flop and there are two redraws to come.We WANT to prevent AK from drawing...and that is a hand that can reraise from the button, and make a nice cb to that board, ESPECIALLY against a player who has consistently folded flops after raising preflop. We either want AK to fold, or pay a bad price to draw. A c/r to 6k gives AK nice pricing - A c/c gives AK phenomenal pricing.As well, if for some reason he has reraised JJ or TT preflop, we are giving the hand away.Do we honestly isolate his holdings to AA and KK? In that case, are you check-folding a flop of AKQr?You don't think he flopped a set or top two, do you?Please educate me, because I'm feeling pretty stupid...why is leading the flop bad? Why is reraising preflop bad?No, I don't think we need to go broke here...at all...but I do think we need to invest a little more.
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#46 HoosierAlum

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 07:28 AM

View Postshpaget, on Friday, March 16th, 2007, 9:23 AM, said:

Why do people continually misuse this idiom?This does not hold entirely true when we are on the flop and there are two redraws to come.We WANT to prevent AK from drawing...and that is a hand that can reraise from the button, and make a nice cb to that board, ESPECIALLY against a player who has consistently folded flops after raising preflop. We either want AK to fold, or pay a bad price to draw. A c/r to 6k gives AK nice pricing - A c/c gives AK phenomenal pricing.As well, if for some reason he has reraised JJ or TT preflop, we are giving the hand away.Do we honestly isolate his holdings to AA and KK? In that case, are you check-folding a flop of AKQr?You don't think he flopped a set or top two, do you?Please educate me, because I'm feeling pretty stupid...why is leading the flop bad? Why is reraising preflop bad?No, I don't think we need to go broke here...at all...but I do think we need to invest a little more.
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#47 mk

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 07:42 AM

here's the lesson from this hand: playing pots oop with deep stacks sucks balls.

#48 HoosierAlum

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 07:52 AM

View Postmk, on Friday, March 16th, 2007, 10:42 AM, said:

here's the lesson from this hand: playing pots oop with deep stacks sucks balls.
yep.also, as a general rule in deep stacked NLHE: Protecting your stack is much more important than protecting your hand.




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#49 shpaget

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 08:51 AM

View PostHoosierAlum, on Friday, March 16th, 2007, 7:28 AM, said:

wow, just wow.
Good input.It's a very simple series of questions.Does villain, or does he not, make this play with AK, AQ, JJ and TT? Or just AA and KK? Does he reraise pf with 99, 88 or 98?Do all the times you pick off a cb with a c/r outweigh the times you are beat? Giving your loose image, can a good player with AK or TT or JJ think he's still ahead of you on the turn, if you called the flop and checked the turn, and bet at you again?Can you not c/r here, and fold and still play effectively with over 50 big blinds?Does check/calling define anything? Or does it just give a worse hand a free two-outer..or worse, a free six outer? And, by checking the turn, another free shot? Not to mention that if you are behind, and you do suckout, you need to extract another 10k+ out of him to make the play profitable.Does a preflop re-reraise narrow villain's range?Does a flop lead not define villain's hand...or will he raise you with all the same hands he would have cb with?
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#50 SlackerInc

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 02:03 PM

View Postcopernicus, on Friday, March 16th, 2007, 8:09 AM, said:

Without reading the rest of the responses, your description seems to put the pro on an overpair to 9s most of the time, in which case youre a coinflip. He could be semibluffing a straight draw, but he also could have made an aggresively played (preflop) set or two pair out of 98s. Youre probably slightly ahead here overall, but given your approach to this tourney it doesnt seem like the time to tangle with him.Edit: After reading the responses, I hate a check raise to 6 or 7k, it commits far too much of the starting stack. There is a lot of validity to the point that calling preflop and folding here is equivalent to playing QQ for set value, and the board has no A, K or two suited, yet Im still thinking about folding? That leads me to think that the right line is reraising preflop. Its cheaper than check/raising, and takes control of the hand. If he reraises PF he's pretty solidly on AA,KK...he doesnt want to donk out at this time in the tourney against your AA, KK or QQ. If he calls the preflop raise and you get an A or K board you can get out. With this board you try and retain control of the hand with a lead bet.As played I still fold, but if you are going to play on I think check/push is better than the alternatives. You do have some fold equity on top of the times youre ahead, because sets and two pair are more in your range with the pf action than they are in his.
Sweet vindication! (ETA: I guess Copernicus isn't endorsing the exact line that I took, but closer than many of the other responses.)

#51 PrtyPSux

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 02:36 PM

View Postshpaget, on Friday, March 16th, 2007, 3:51 PM, said:

Good input.
It sent out a brief and clear message that your initial response to his post had the general pompous tone that most of the "I'm too good for this" 2+2'ers use when they answer some noob. Then he went on to read that your reasoning was pretty much way off. As for your very simple series of questions. Here is what I think:Does villain, or does he not, make this play with AK, AQ, JJ and TT? Or just AA and KK? Does he reraise pf with 99, 88 or 98?We don't know. He hasn't reraised preflop at all this tourney..all we know is that he's been around poker way before it was huge and his aggression has mostly been post flop. Do all the times you pick off a cb with a c/r outweigh the times you are beat?essentially, no.. say you pick off the c-bet with a c/r 50% of the time, then that 50% of the time you're winning 5200 and your stack will be at 23k or so, the other 50% of the time it'll be at around 10k, if you check fold you're still somewhere around 16.5k , at this point in the tourney the chips you lose by winning the hand far outweigh the significance of the chips you win by pushing him out on the flop. Basically, you can do just as much playing with 16k than with 23k but you can't really keep playing too many hands with 10k, if I think I'm good enough to fold this hand and still chip back up by seeing cheap flops then I should probably just fold. That being said, had someone told me "in 1 hr your table will include Gus, Alahei, Goehring, Muller, Thaler and Binger" I might have taken a different approach to the hand, if I had seen the hands villian played after I folded QQ, then too might I have just called the flop. In this case, nothing was known so I think folding is actually correct, in theory. Giving your loose image, can a good player with AK or TT or JJ think he's still ahead of you on the turn, if you called the flop and checked the turn, and bet at you again?Not really, most good players check behind if they think they're ahead with something that marginal...on the other hand a good player CAN and probably will put me on QQ and try and rep AA with something like AK, or total rags. Can you not c/r here, and fold and still play effectively with over 50 big blinds?this is not an online tourney..50bb's is okay but not what you want to have at any point in day 1. Not the way these guys run over you..Does check/calling define anything? Or does it just give a worse hand a free two-outer..or worse, a free six outer? And, by checking the turn, another free shot? Not to mention that if you are behind, and you do suckout, you need to extract another 10k+ out of him to make the play profitable. that's just way wrong, in theory and logically, I don't really wan't to get into it though. Does a preflop re-reraise narrow villain's range?who cares? why would I wan't to commit 5k more preflop to win 1600 and not define his hand at all....I think he's almost NEVER 4 bet shoving AA and KK here, so when he smooth calls then I'm 100% screwed, and now I have the lead in a big pot without even seeing a flop yet..no thank you...also, what if he decides to smooth call with AK? And what if he 4 bet shoves on me? even if I know he's almost never doing it with AA or KK I can't call, because I have 50bb's + left and I can for sure pick a better spot. So imo, 3 betting pre is about the worst you can do, and I think the other 3 options are very close, and they're all definately arguable..I think folding might be the best considering it is a 10k tourney with 20k stacks and 1 hr levels, I think check/calling is a close 2nd but at the same time it's the only one that can win us the hand with relative safety.. it can also spew 2200 when we get bluffed on the turn or v-bet on the river (cuz once he checks the turn we have to call the river). I think c/r'ing is the way that will MOST likely win us the hand but that's like saying "open shoving 25bb's with A10 is the best way to steal the blinds"... sure it is, but it isn't correct because its too much to risk for too little to gain. Does a flop lead not define villain's hand...or will he raise you with all the same hands he would have cb with?no.... most likely yes.And yes, if I'm check folding that flop but calling a preflop raise I'm mostly playing for set value, I don't think I'd fold any pair preflop in that situation, I might not even fold any suited connectors which oddly enough I'd like to have in that spot more than any pair b/c I can easily flop a draw, and 2 pr is almost just as valuable in that situation as a set. And if the flop comes AKQ, I might not check/fold but I will proceed with caution, it really has nothing to do with the hand that was played for a lot of reasons.

#52 Zach6668

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 02:53 PM

I can't wrap my head around playing QQ for set value.I guess it just shows why I'm not dominating the tour.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#53 PrtyPSux

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 03:02 PM

View PostHoosierAlum, on Friday, March 16th, 2007, 12:21 PM, said:

This hand reminded me of a ZeeJustin post:http://forumserver.t...t...part=1&vc=1
Almost the same hand with a few major differences though..A- 2k event will most likely have donks that won't care as much.B- 2k event usually has a lot worse structure than a 10k main, in which case the chips you gain my outweigh the ones you lose, even with a big stack (100bb's is HUGE in a 2k event, not so much in a 10k) I still don't like the play he made, even if it works, I think ZJ pwns but I think he has leaks for sure...small ones, smaller than mine :-) .. I think he's too willing to play big pots and often commits himself to gambling a bit, this isn't tough for him right now, but imo it will be when he runs bad live. I think check calling is better b/c you'll probably end up spending the 6k that you will by c/r'ing except you get bluffed more often and you have a better shot at winning more than what's already in the middle on the flop. So, I tend to lean more to strassa's side.Also, Playing a 10k event with a vvgood structure, you're not looking for good preflop hands nearly as much as you are in 2k's...in 10k's you're mostly looking for post flop hands and actually trying to hit them, the problem only comes when you get good preflop hands the 1st levels, never hit a flop in the mid levels, and can't pick up a good PF hand once you're at 30 bb's at the end of day one, which is essentially what happened to me in bay 101. But that's just how tourney poker is, so you have to accept it.

#54 SlackerInc

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 03:20 PM

View PostZach6668, on Friday, March 16th, 2007, 4:53 PM, said:

I can't wrap my head around playing QQ for set value.I guess it just shows why I'm not dominating the tour.
You and me both! But I did agree with him about the jerks at 2+2. That was the first board I posted at before coming here...ick.

#55 HoosierAlum

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 04:07 PM

Nice post JC. I agree w/the points you are making, but I lean towards c/c being a little better than c/f. Lets not forget that you have been doing a ton of c/fing throughout the day so you should probably be peeling 1 card here...I just think in day 1 of these 10ks you need to be focusing on protecting your stack more than anything else. To the guy saying "We must protect against AK drawing out!"; that is not the attitude to take when playing deep-stacked. The most important thing is keeping the pot manageable, and at all costs avoiding awkward spots for huge amounts of chips. If we c/r or 4 bet pre, we are going to be in an awkward spot for a huge amount of chips.




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#56 PrtyPSux

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 04:32 PM

View PostHoosierAlum, on Friday, March 16th, 2007, 11:07 PM, said:

Nice post JC. I agree w/the points you are making, but I lean towards c/c being a little better than c/f. Lets not forget that you have been doing a ton of c/fing throughout the day so you should probably be peeling 1 card here...
yea, shouldnt that be more of a reason for him NOT to reraise me with junk though? I mean, if I'm c/f'ing every time I raise, why not just peel a flop w/ junk and hope I c/f...if he has a monster, then he knows he has no implied odds unless I hit so reraising small might be smarter no?

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I just think in day 1 of these 10ks you need to be focusing on protecting your stack more than anything else. To the guy saying "We must protect against AK drawing out!"; that is not the attitude to take when playing deep-stacked. The most important thing is keeping the pot manageable, and at all costs avoiding awkward spots for huge amounts of chips. If we c/r or 4 bet pre, we are going to be in an awkward spot for a huge amount of chips.
IMO, check calling is just a better alternative to the C/R, the difference between the c/c and c/r is that by c/c you might see a showdown for 6 or 7k and the c/r you won't get sucked out on by AK or AQ or JJ but you'll still be commiting 6 or 7k....the difference between the check call and the check fold is huge imo and I think it depends on how you view a 10k buy in tourney, if you think this is not the spot you want to commit 1/3 of your stack in, then u should just check/fold. If I'm seeing a ton of flops then I'll probably end up flopping a better spot later (which I didnt) otherwise I'm just running bad that tourney (which I was)..

#57 HoosierAlum

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 05:18 PM

View PostPrtyPSux, on Friday, March 16th, 2007, 7:32 PM, said:

yea, shouldnt that be more of a reason for him NOT to reraise me with junk though? I mean, if I'm c/f'ing every time I raise, why not just peel a flop w/ junk and hope I c/f...if he has a monster, then he knows he has no implied odds unless I hit so reraising small might be smarter no? IMO, check calling is just a better alternative to the C/R, the difference between the c/c and c/r is that by c/c you might see a showdown for 6 or 7k and the c/r you won't get sucked out on by AK or AQ or JJ but you'll still be commiting 6 or 7k....the difference between the check call and the check fold is huge imo and I think it depends on how you view a 10k buy in tourney, if you think this is not the spot you want to commit 1/3 of your stack in, then u should just check/fold. If I'm seeing a ton of flops then I'll probably end up flopping a better spot later (which I didnt) otherwise I'm just running bad that tourney (which I was)..
Yea, I just meant you know he is going to be cont betting w/100% of hands that he is reraising pf. But I do agree that his range is fairly tight especially given that this is the first hand he has 3 bet all day.The point about c/r and c/c is well taken, by c/c you spend the same amount of chips as c/r (or possibly less if the river goes c/c), but you also get to see a showdown and maybe even extract chips from him on a bluff.Its an interesting spot and similar spots come up early in 10ks so its definitely something to think about.




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#58 Ouch-8s

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 05:31 PM

I honestly cannot stop thinking about this hand. Thanks for posting it.
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#59 GrinderMJ

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 11:45 PM

This hand is so sick

#60 PrtyPSux

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 12:16 AM

View PostGrinderMJ, on Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 6:45 AM, said:

This hand is so sick
but it looks so simple doesnt it? I'd post it on other forums but I'm way too lazy ...this is also officially the first hand I've ever PM'ed to DN, but he didnt read it..In general I think he might check fold, but maybe check call...I'm not sure..




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