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Bay 101 ..hand That Bugged Me


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#21 tskillz187

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 01:45 PM

I think you C/R to 6k and fold to a shove. If he smooth calls and has you beat you're losing all your chips on the turn.
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#22 Jam-Fly

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 03:24 PM

View Posttskillz187, on Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 1:45 PM, said:

I think you C/R to 6k and fold to a shove. If he smooth calls and has you beat you're losing all your chips on the turn.
Yeah, agree with that. I wud maybe raise 7k tho. I would also lead at flop and dump if I get a biggish reraise
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#23 RDog

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 04:05 PM

View Postmk, on Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 8:14 AM, said:

pretty sure we can limit his (villain's) range to AA-QQ.
I think this range is much too small given that villain A)probably has same read as JC on limper and B)villain realizes that JC is probably just trying to isolate the limper.

#24 PrtyPSux

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 04:10 PM

I check folded.not much reasoning behind my actions, I just didnt want to commit 1/3 of my stack at the 100/200 level when there was a good chance I was beat. I asked most of my friends (great players) and most of them said they didn't mind the fold at all. However I think this is a hand that can be played a lot of different ways and not be incorrect. I think check calling the flop and leading the turn is bad because a good player will shove on that lead with a lot more hands than if you c/r the flop. So I think C/R to 6k > Check/call/lead.At the same time I think check calling the flop and check folding the turn can also be a safer way to play the hand, and you might get the same info you get by c/r'ing without commiting too much. If he checks behind on the turn then I check/call any river without an A or K...someone mentioned leading the river if he checks the turn, but I think that's bad..you might as well let AK fire big.So Tmay says it wasn't a bad fold, Toilet and Sbrounder say it isn't terrible, and Matusow says "you can't just check fold, I'd c/r to 6k and if he shoves he deserves the pot"...I think this is a tougher spot than it looks in a 10k event with 20k in chips, your main goal day 1 is to survive hopefully with enough chips to play on day 2. Either way day 2 is where the action is at and I try to stay away from risking my chips in spots where I have no clue where I stand on day 1. In hindsight I think I should have c/r'ed to 6k or 5500, but that might be based on a play I saw later that day:gigabet raised 600 dude that I mucked Q's to called from button, guy called from bb, flop 768 check, giga bet 800, button made it 2200, bb made it 5500, giga thought foreverand mucked..obv mucking a set....button instashoves 6k more, bb calls with 95 button shows 98...if this happened before I might play the hand differently but it hadn't so I had no clue, this was also the first time he reraised pre, although not the first time he played back at me.

#25 PrtyPSux

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 04:12 PM

View PostRDog, on Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 11:05 PM, said:

I think this range is much too small given that villain A)probably has same read as JC on limper and B)villain realizes that JC is probably just trying to isolate the limper.
he made it 1600 though...clearly pricing me in...I add AK to that range, because I've found that some players like to take a cheap lead with AK without commiting too much, considering he hadn't reraised all day I didnt think he had that bad of a hand.

#26 RDog

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 04:14 PM

Ugh, this is tough. I probably call and hope he slows down on the turn. Given your read on the limper and the villains read on you, I'm still not convinced you are behind here. I also can't argue against raising here to try to determine where you are at. The only issue I have with raising here is....what do you do on the turn if he just calls your raise?

#27 PrtyPSux

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 04:39 PM

View PostRDog, on Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 11:14 PM, said:

\what do you do on the turn if he just calls your raise?
exactly, I have to check fold but then again it'd be hard for him to call with a hand I have beat, so him calling is the same as him raising, except it gives me the free shot at spiking 2 outs.

#28 DCJ001

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 04:48 PM

View PostPrtyPSux, on Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 1:07 AM, said:

I check, he bets 2200 pretty fast. Considering I had 18k to start the hand, and its barely the 200 level, What is your play?
I usually feel that someone with a strong hand takes a little longer to think about how much to bet.WWDDWhat would Daniel do?http://www.fullconta...showtopic=88379Check, call, check, call, unless you sense that he's strong?

#29 RDog

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 06:31 PM

View PostPrtyPSux, on Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 5:39 PM, said:

exactly, I have to check fold but then again it'd be hard for him to call with a hand I have beat, so him calling is the same as him raising, except it gives me the free shot at spiking 2 outs.
Yeah, its tough. I can see arguments for folding, calling or raising. I probably call but then again, you probably have to take less chances to get chips than I do.

#30 GrinderMJ

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 12:33 AM

I actually think folding is by far the best play, I think raising this spot is pretty suicidal a big % of the time.

#31 SlackerInc

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 12:45 AM

I'm torn between folding and pushing, followed by calling. I think the 6/7k raise is the worst option--just more chips than you should put in the pot without pushing. I mean, when Copernicus and I discussed this, I mentioned that Sklansky says 40% is the limit, but he said it's more like 25-30%. 7k is higher than either of those, and 6k is pretty borderline.I do tend to think villain's range is wider than some of you are giving him credit for, and we have to keep the raggedy rainbow board in mind too (villain might think we whiffed with AK, and/or he might have done so himself). I think this is a real tough one, but I lean slightly toward a "crying push", if you will. Even if you are behind, you might spike a Q on the turn or river...

#32 GrinderMJ

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 01:01 AM

View PostSlackerInc, on Thursday, March 15th, 2007, 1:45 PM, said:

I'm torn between folding and pushing, followed by calling. I think the 6/7k raise is the worst option--just more chips than you should put in the pot without pushing. I mean, when Copernicus and I discussed this, I mentioned that Sklansky says 40% is the limit, but he said it's more like 25-30%. 7k is higher than either of those, and 6k is pretty borderline.I do tend to think villain's range is wider than some of you are giving him credit for, and we have to keep the raggedy rainbow board in mind too (villain might think we whiffed with AK, and/or he might have done so himself). I think this is a real tough one, but I lean slightly toward a "crying push", if you will. Even if you are behind, you might spike a Q on the turn or river...
Shoving is super super bad. He bets 2200 on the flop, and you shove 13 or 14k at him? Everytime you get looked up you are crushed, and all a shove does at this point is get all our chips in while we are way behind, and make our opponent fold worse hands. Maybe there's a tiny chance he makes a hero call with 1010 or JJ but that's lofty. JC is a small baller, and if he just folds the flop, he has over 16k at 100/200/25. JC can find much much better spots with an M of over 30 vs. live donks

#33 SlackerInc

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 02:19 AM

View PostGrinderMJ, on Thursday, March 15th, 2007, 3:01 AM, said:

Shoving is super super bad. He bets 2200 on the flop, and you shove 13 or 14k at him? Everytime you get looked up you are crushed, and all a shove does at this point is get all our chips in while we are way behind, and make our opponent fold worse hands.
I see your point, but it strikes me that there are points to make about why the other alternatives are bad as well. I already laid out why I think the non-push reraise is bad. Calling might lose us as many chips or more, while dragging us along with no idea where we stand, and of course calling gives us no fold equity. And I think at this point hero is so lost, scooping up the pot and moving on is not a bad result.Let's also remember that you're making the shove look like an overbet in relation to villain's flop bet, but in relation to the whole pot it's not nearly so huge.

#34 mk

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 04:23 AM

View PostPrtyPSux, on Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 6:39 PM, said:

exactly, I have to check fold but then again it'd be hard for him to call with a hand I have beat, so him calling is the same as him raising, except it gives me the free shot at spiking 2 outs.
pretty gross spot...i think a c/f is perfectly fine. you really just have no way to find out where you're at because he could easily shove over a c/r with JJ or something and then you have to surrender a HUGE pot.the only hope here is that you're sort of chronically underrepresented at the table by playing a ton of pots and showing down some weakish hands. it might cause this guy to overplay JJ/TT, but again, you have no way of finding out without playing a huge pot with 1 pair, not a fun thing to do with 100+ BB stacks.something i might consider here is 3-betting pre. it might be the best way to define your hand, unless this opponent is capable of n-barreling without AA/KK. i know your game is sort of based on not making plays like this pre, and i almost never do it either but unless you flop a set, you aren't in love with any board.

#35 meservery

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 08:13 AM

View PostPrtyPSux, on Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 1:07 AM, said:

The flop is 984r..I check, he bets 2200 pretty fast. Considering I had 18k to start the hand, and its barely the 200 level, What is your play?
Is it bad to lead the flop here? Bet like 1500 or so, fold to a raise.

#36 PrtyPSux

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 11:34 AM

View Postmeservery, on Thursday, March 15th, 2007, 3:13 PM, said:

Is it bad to lead the flop here? Bet like 1500 or so, fold to a raise.
yea it's pretty bad...seems too weak and almost any semi strong player will raise u in that spot.

#37 Sen. Bill Frist

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 12:07 PM

I dont understand calling the re raise and then folding to a c bet on this flop? Did you call for set value?

#38 SlackerInc

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 12:58 PM

View PostSen. Bill Frist, on Thursday, March 15th, 2007, 2:07 PM, said:

I dont understand calling the re raise and then folding to a c bet on this flop? Did you call for set value?
Great question. Would be different if there were a K or A on the flop.

#39 shpaget

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 01:21 PM

If we put him on AA/KK, can we make him think we flopped a set, and fold?Lead flop, push his raise?Is AK entirely out of the question?Doesn't leading the flop define your opponent's hand more than a check to a bet that could be either a bluff, or a cb to a player who has shown a propensity to check/fold flops?
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#40 Acid_Knight

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 02:13 PM

Check folding is ridiculously weak here. You have enough chips left to make an assertive check-raise and then fold if he calls or raises. If you were so sure he had AA or KK, fold preflop. You called to see a flop, got an EXTREMELY favorable one and chose to check-fold the hand? It doesn't make sense to me.




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