11 replies to this topic

[givalitl]

SnG down to 7 players, blinds 25-50, players don't know each other very well. MP player with ~2000, raises to 150. SB with ~1000, flat calls. Flop comes x x K, one club. SB checks, MP bets 300, SB raises all-in. MP eventually calls with KcJc, SB turns up AK. SB takes the pot.

My big question is what does everyone think about the flat call by the SB? I personally think it's a terrible play and would much rather see a raise, but I'm interested in others' opinions?

[NocturnalRob]

eh. blinds are still pretty low. SB has 20x the bb. i dunno. it's a fairly passive play that worked out.

[linkwood]

To be honest it sounds like the sb is the type that overvalues ak and hands like this reinforce that belief. So, from that perspective, yeah, its a bad play. I don't think its necessarily terrible, but its not something i would ever do.

as an aside, from your description the call by MP with kj is pretty bad as well. sounds like the board is pretty dry and i don't think that the person would make the AICR with k10, so relying on the backdoor flush draw to save you seems pretty far fetched.

[cubbybri]

I do not know how this is a bad play. SB effective M of 9, this would reason me to push all-in pre-flop. I can also see the mentality that SB decides to see flop and to push on any flop he hits.

I know HOH would normally say to call a raise with AK whether suited or not. I give no issue to what SB didi in this hand except that he may have made a better choice to push pre. If he did would he have a had a call? Who knows.

The flop push seems necessary with the amount of chips SB has left behind.

MP raising KJ pretty average play. He hits flop and probably bets even if he didn't. He now gets pushed by a stack that really had to if playing the hand. What hand could he have. Made set? possible. Two pair, not likely. tp/wk, only see KT as possible. Top pair better kicker, KQ possible. Ak, he must not have thought of under assumption that he would have pushed or reraised pre-flop. Then there are all the possibilities where he bluffs to a con't bet. That could be many from mid PP to any broadway or an ace that caught mid or low pair.


So calling 550 in a pot that is now 1500. Doesn't seem like much to me if he doesn't have SB on set or KQ. He doesn't know the table from what ou said so I believe there are a ton of hands that MP could have beat for nearly 3 to 1 pot odds.


I don't know all the chip stacks but if we had a big chip leader and then MP 2nd in chips, that could leave 3rd through 7th with about the same number of chips so that may be a good reason to call raise with AK. Not enough info.

I think in most situations with SBs stack this would be good time to push but to say that it's a terrible play to call I don't agree with at all. Ak is not a made hand and many overplay this hand too often. Pushing in this scenario is my choice but I don't think it would always be the optimal choice.

[gobears]

The call is fine - it disguises the strength of his hand if he hits. If he jams preflop, the other guy probably folds so he doubled his stack by just calling vs just picking up the initial bet & blinds.

Of course he can also get burned playing it this way if initial raiser had something like 89 and the flop came 9 high. With his stack, AK wants to see all five cards. Whether he puts all the chips in before or after the flop is up to each individual player.

[SlackerInc]

As I've said many a time before, I like Sklansky's line on this: he says AK is an optimal "move in" hand. So I'd definitely have shoveled, especially being OOP after the flop.

[Mercury69]

Low blinds, passive play, small ball approach. Worked this time, if he misses the flop, he gets out cheaply. It's no time to push and pray.

[ChrisRichey]

SB is just a little too deep to push pf here imo, and a rr is going to commit a large portion of his stack with an unmade hand, so a call looks like the best option to me. Bad luck.

[aadams_22]

As I've said many a time before, I like Sklansky's line on this: he says AK is an optimal "move in" hand. So I'd definitely have shoveled, especially being OOP after the flop.

SB is not in "shoving" position just yet, he has enough chips to where he can wait to push...Sklansky's words should be taken as a guide and not the gospel.


That aside, the flat call PF isn't the greatest move in the world with AK, but it's not unheard of. It's not a terrible play and it allows him to get away from the hand if he bricks the flop (like gobears said), but I would probably raise with it in that position. He would have to be careful in what he raises though so as to not pot commit himself before the flop comes.

[SlackerInc]

SB is not in "shoving" position just yet, he has enough chips to where he can wait to push...Sklansky's words should be taken as a guide and not the gospel.

I'm not saying it has to be done, and there is no other play, just that it's a good play. As for whether he's in "shoving position", let's not forget that other than the section specifically dealing with shortstacks, the Sklansky NLHE book is concerned mainly with deep stack play.

[cubbybri]

Again not saying I dislike call but for those who say to raise it but not push; what do we do make a min reraise to 300?

I think you've gotta push, why risk a third of your stack(or more if you are recommending a real raise) and give everyone a chance to see flop before your push.

You do stop and go, you're going to get called by someone who hit so if no ace or king, you got yourself in nice mess.

You fold because you didn't hit then you really should have just called IMO.

Just curious to what is considered a smart raise amount here if you raise without pushing.

[GrinderMJ]

Why would you guys not want to get the money in here. I think it's a shove for sure.

EDIT: I don't hate the just call to disguise your hand strength, but I don't like it.