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#21 SlackerInc

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 03:27 PM

View Posttskillz187, on Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 5:17 PM, said:

Too stuck in my ways to change my game now. Start some threads when you start taking diwn mtts because of this strat :club:
It will be interesting for me to decide what to do when I play you guys on Wednesday. This strat is not exactly well suited, I'd think, to using against people who have been warned about it in specific detail! And it's not supposed to be used for tourneys that small either. So I'd probably just better turn it off (will be weird to "switch gears" so massively).Also interesting will be to start threads about situations where I started the hand by calling a raise from the button with junk but flopped two pair or trips or whatnot and face some postflop decisions. Anyone who didn't catch this thread or who is new to the board will be wondering "who is this donkey?" LOL

#22 CobaltBlue

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 04:17 PM

View PostSlackerInc, on Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 6:27 PM, said:

Also interesting will be to start threads about situations where I started the hand by calling a raise from the button with junk but flopped two pair or trips or whatnot and face some postflop decisions. Anyone who didn't catch this thread or who is new to the board will be wondering "who is this donkey?" LOL
I think the ATC from the button is probably the most controversial advice from the book. I haven't fully implemented it yet, though the times I have, it's worked decently. I'm a little bit curious about some of the details though. He suggests that it's somewhat situation specific. He states that you need to have a goodly amount of chips (and somewhat know your opponents). That said, shouldn't this also be a function of how many chips the raiser has and how many chips the blinds have? If any of those opponents have too few chips, it'd seem to drastically reduce your success with this strategy.Also, I hadn't seen it mentioned yet, but the min-raise from late position with junk after several limpers in order to mostly create havoc is pretty interesting. I had to re-read that part several times to make sure I was understanding him correctly.

#23 SlackerInc

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 09:26 PM

View PostCobaltBlue, on Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 6:17 PM, said:

Also, I hadn't seen it mentioned yet, but the min-raise from late position with junk after several limpers in order to mostly create havoc is pretty interesting. I had to re-read that part several times to make sure I was understanding him correctly.
Oh, right--I forgot about that one. The idea is different from a "chip sandwich" play in that you're not trying to scoop up a bunch of limpers' bets and take down the pot, but just make everyone pay more to see the flop.

#24 Chiefclint

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 06:43 AM

good discussion, I think I will give it a read, thanks

#25 SlackerInc

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 08:17 AM

View PostCobaltBlue, on Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 6:17 PM, said:

Also, I hadn't seen it mentioned yet, but the min-raise from late position with junk after several limpers in order to mostly create havoc is pretty interesting. I had to re-read that part several times to make sure I was understanding him correctly.
Here's an example hand where I used this tactic (though my hand wasn't technically junk, I would have done the same thing regardless of what I had):PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)MP3 (t1460)CO (t1380)Hero (t1460)SB (t2480)BB (t1500)UTG (t1500)UTG+1 (t1280)MP1 (t1500)MP2 (t940)Preflop: Hero is Button with KPosted Image, JPosted Image. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20, Hero raises to t40, 1 fold, BB calls t20, UTG+1 calls t20, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20.Flop: (t250) 5Posted Image, 9Posted Image, APosted Image (6 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets t200, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds.Final Pot: t450

#26 ChrisRichey

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 08:48 AM

So, does anybody else think Mason Malmuth is retarded and condescending at the same time? It sounds to me like Snyder has some good ideas though, and explains them fairly well. I found this book, and that one by the FBI profiler on amazon for like $25, so I'll prob be ordering those very soon.

#27 SlackerInc

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 10:16 AM

View PostChrisRichey, on Sunday, March 18th, 2007, 10:48 AM, said:

So, does anybody else think Mason Malmuth is retarded and condescending at the same time? It sounds to me like Snyder has some good ideas though, and explains them fairly well. I found this book, and that one by the FBI profiler on amazon for like $25, so I'll prob be ordering those very soon.
LMAO about the description of Malmuth. Great way to put it!What's the FBI profiler thing all about?

#28 ChrisRichey

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 11:16 AM

View PostSlackerInc, on Sunday, March 18th, 2007, 11:16 AM, said:

LMAO about the description of Malmuth. Great way to put it!What's the FBI profiler thing all about?
The FBI profiler's name is Joe Navarro (I think), and he used to teach seminars at Hellmuth's poker camps. He has a book out now on using his knowledge from working for the FBI to pick up tells on people at the table. Apparently there is some good stuff in there.

#29 tskillz187

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 05:36 PM

View PostSlackerInc, on Sunday, March 18th, 2007, 9:17 AM, said:

Here's an example hand where I used this tactic (though my hand wasn't technically junk, I would have done the same thing regardless of what I had):PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)MP3 (t1460)CO (t1380)Hero (t1460)SB (t2480)BB (t1500)UTG (t1500)UTG+1 (t1280)MP1 (t1500)MP2 (t940)Preflop: Hero is Button with KPosted Image, JPosted Image. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20, Hero raises to t40, 1 fold, BB calls t20, UTG+1 calls t20, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20.Flop: (t250) 5Posted Image, 9Posted Image, APosted Image (6 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets t200, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds.Final Pot: t450
God I hate this book and this lame strategy already. I really hate hate hate this play.
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#30 CobaltBlue

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 09:45 PM

View Posttskillz187, on Sunday, March 18th, 2007, 8:36 PM, said:

God I hate this book and this lame strategy already. I really hate hate hate this play.
skillz, that particular play is a more obscure one. SI in that hand didn't actually employ it in the right situation. Snyder suggests when the blinds are like 150/300 and you're sitting on 10k while everyone else is sitting on ~2k, several people limp, and you min-raise in late position. Mostly, it'll damage the hell out of any of the short stacks that play the pot. You may not be the one that wins it, but it'll create havoc and the "good" players will hate you for it because it's such a confusing play.Oh, and he also says to not do it with a real hand...mostly marginal/junk hands that you would've limped with anyway.

#31 SlackerInc

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 10:43 PM

View PostCobaltBlue, on Sunday, March 18th, 2007, 11:45 PM, said:

skillz, that particular play is a more obscure one. SI in that hand didn't actually employ it in the right situation. Snyder suggests when the blinds are like 150/300 and you're sitting on 10k while everyone else is sitting on ~2k, several people limp, and you min-raise in late position. Mostly, it'll damage the hell out of any of the short stacks that play the pot. You may not be the one that wins it, but it'll create havoc and the "good" players will hate you for it because it's such a confusing play.Oh, and he also says to not do it with a real hand...mostly marginal/junk hands that you would've limped with anyway.
You're right about a lot of the specifics there (that I had already forgotten about even though I just read the book a few days ago...I think like HoH I need to read it a few more times to let it sink in). But do you think he would hate the play overall? What do you think Snyder would do in this situation? Maybe just limp in? Obviously he's not folding on his prized button. And then what about when everyone checks around after the flop--don't you think he'd "take a shot" at the pot?Also, tskillz, just out of curiosity, how would you have played the hand? Limp preflop, then check behind on the flop? (That's what I would have done a few days ago.)

#32 tskillz187

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 09:24 AM

I probably would have just folded it PF. I play really tight early unless I have a hand that has sneaky value, KJo has no sneaky value and can cost you a little too much if you hit the flop.
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#33 SlackerInc

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 01:15 PM

View Posttskillz187, on Monday, March 19th, 2007, 11:24 AM, said:

I probably would have just folded it PF. I play really tight early unless I have a hand that has sneaky value, KJo has no sneaky value and can cost you a little too much if you hit the flop.
Really? No limp for that cheap? All those limpers...what if the flop comes Q 10 2 rainbow, say?So, anyway, I was rereading the book today and came across a couple funny lines I thought I'd share (the book is math-heavy, but like Action Dan, Snyder has a wry sense of humour at times). Both refer to a multi-qualifier satellite situation where you are one of the chip leaders in the late stages:First, a situation (like a satellite with 200 original entrants, only 25 remain, and you are in the top ten chip leaders) where you can be virtually assured of coasting into the "money": "I'd throw away pocket aces. Why risk a suck-out when I'm already assured of a win? I'd let the more desperate players--the players who know they are on the edge of extinction--grapple for position with each other. Don't bother me, I'm meditating."Next, a ST qualifier that awards two seats, when there are five players left: "If you are in any of the top three chip positions, you've got to be careful about taking shots at the truly desperate. Let the children play with each other."

#34 copernicus

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 01:23 PM

View PostSlackerInc, on Sunday, March 18th, 2007, 12:17 PM, said:

Here's an example hand where I used this tactic (though my hand wasn't technically junk, I would have done the same thing regardless of what I had):PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)MP3 (t1460)CO (t1380)Hero (t1460)SB (t2480)BB (t1500)UTG (t1500)UTG+1 (t1280)MP1 (t1500)MP2 (t940)Preflop: Hero is Button with KPosted Image, JPosted Image. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20, Hero raises to t40, 1 fold, BB calls t20, UTG+1 calls t20, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20.Flop: (t250) 5Posted Image, 9Posted Image, APosted Image (6 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets t200, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds.Final Pot: t450
The stars were aligned right on this one. If there were an A in another hand, your min-raise screams small pair or weak Ace at best and you'll get played back at a lot. It also doesnt hurt that its the Ac on the board and you hold the K, because two clubs (esp with the 9) are going to be a lot more cautious without the nut flush card. Then theres the limping pairs of 5s and 9s that weren't there. I really dont see the value in the min-raise. Even after the clarfification that the play is intended for your very big stack vs. smaller stacks, the difference between the min-raise and a standard raise doesnt hurt you, and it narrows the field signficantly more than the min-raise. Then you dont find yourself up against well disguised hands anymore.
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#35 SlackerInc

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 01:32 PM

View Postcopernicus, on Monday, March 19th, 2007, 3:23 PM, said:

your min-raise screams small pair or weak Ace at best
Huh, I tend to suspect KK or AA when I see a minraise.

#36 tskillz187

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 02:07 PM

View PostSlackerInc, on Monday, March 19th, 2007, 2:32 PM, said:

Huh, I tend to suspect KK or AA when I see a minraise.
Not after 4-6 limpers it certainly isnt AA or KK.
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#37 CobaltBlue

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 02:59 PM

View Postcopernicus, on Monday, March 19th, 2007, 4:23 PM, said:

I really dont see the value in the min-raise. Even after the clarfification that the play is intended for your very big stack vs. smaller stacks, the difference between the min-raise and a standard raise doesnt hurt you, and it narrows the field signficantly more than the min-raise.
He states that your goal in this particular situation isn't to narrow the field in order to better win the pot. Yeah, you might win a slightly bloated consequence as a result, but that's a by-product. The real reason you're doing it is to screw with people and create crippling havoc.

#38 trystero

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 03:58 PM

View PostCobaltBlue, on Monday, March 19th, 2007, 6:59 PM, said:

The real reason you're doing it is to screw with people and create crippling havoc.
Since when is this poker's objective, though? I'm not there to annoy players with my customarily awful play. I'm there to win pots and make money or accumulate chips.

#39 tskillz187

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 04:17 PM

View PostCobaltBlue, on Monday, March 19th, 2007, 3:59 PM, said:

... and create crippling havoc.
I hope these are his exact words. This sounds like a second function of some Magic the Gathering card.
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#40 navybuttons

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 05:23 PM

View Posttskillz187, on Monday, March 19th, 2007, 5:17 PM, said:

I hope these are his exact words. This sounds like a second function of some Magic the Gathering card.
LAWLS.KJ? fold preflop in my terrible opinion. maybe this guy is on to something. i dunno, i haven't read it, and certainly haven't implemented it. the creating havoc thing makes me laugh so hard my eyes water. i'll try implementing it in a cash game. i can't finish this post i'm laughing so hard.
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