40 replies to this topic

[Pupsta]

You're in late position first hand of a multitable tourney. Early position raises the 10/20 blinds to 120, and you have AJc. You call, and flop comes 47J rainbow. You and raiser heads up, raiser leads with 220. What do you do?

[Polakplayer16]

seeing as your new to that particular tables, and unfamilier with your opponents playing styles. Just give the guy credit for raiseing it 6 times the big blind in early position. Since you dident preflop, now you have a delema. Is he bluffing? Who cares just lay it down. An initial raise from that early indicates 1 of 2 things. Hes got a monster, or he's frikin crazy, what ever the senario, probably better 2 wait for a better spot.

[darksung]

Raise the minimum, and see his next moveIf he calls, he probably has nothing or an underpair.If he moves in, he definitly hit trips, or has Ks or Qs and doesn't want you to see another card.This is my theory, given that he is not bluffing

[Smasharoo]

You're in late position first hand of a multitable tourney. Early position raises the 10/20 blinds to 120, and you have AJc.One, stop calling 6XB raises with AJo even with position. About the only flop you're really happy with is JJJ.Fold the flop. You have a vulerable top pair that's good here maybe, maybe, half the time and then nearly all the time it's subject to redraws o the turn and the river. You could have avoided having to make this decision (which is much worse if you flop an A by the way) by just folding junk like AJ pf in the face of a raise.

[Polakplayer16]

Next time read the post more closely,You would be re-raising him and that a big chunk of change to make it affective.The ends dont justify the means.

[darksung]

You raise to 440The guy LEADS with 220, so, your in position

[Smasharoo]

darksung said:

Raise the minimum, and see his next moveIf he calls, he probably has nothing or an underpair.If he moves in, he definitly hit trips, or has Ks or Qs and doesn't want you to see another card.This is my theory, given that he is not bluffing

His next move is to push if he's holding 34o, AA, KK, QQ, 56o, 72o, etc.If you had a hand you'd call an all in with here, you'd have either just called his raise or pushed back hard enough to get value.A minimum raise here is so stunningly weak it's almost an automaitc push. A call is worse for you as he probably calls with monsters like JJ and then what when he checks? Check behind him showing weakness which he slams on the river? Bet into him and deal with him coming over the top?Just fold.Get cute later on when you have a probable large edge over someone as opposed to having no idea at all where you stand. That's the point of the pot sied bet, to force you to male a bad decision.

[darksung]

If he's on a draw like you said he might be, first, he has big cards or a pocket pair, or he wouldn't have raised pre-flop 4-5 suited or whatever.On a call, after the minimum raise, he either had A-K and tried to push you out, or 10-10, 9-9.So, he will check on the next card. And then you push, but not all of your chips.

[Smasharoo]

If he's on a draw like you said he might be, first, he has big cards or a pocket pair, or he wouldn't have raised pre-flop 4-5 suited or whatever.On a call, after the minimum raise, he either had A-K and tried to push you out, or 10-10, 9-9.So, he will check on the next card. And then you push, but not all of your chips.No, I'm saying if he calls, you're probably drawing dead or very close to it.90% of the time he pushes with anything, 5% of the time he calls, and 5% of the time he folds.Why is he going to call with 9-9 when you've shown weakness here? He's going to push all in. He's probably going to push all in with QQ as well.Raising is completely pointless here. It's not for value, you don't get any information from it, you might as well just hand him the extra chips to save time if you're goinng to min raise here. Push or fold. Simple.

[rxq]

Let me say that someone calling with AJc on someone that raised six bets, in a early position, IN THE FIRST HAND, is looking to go home early. But since you are in the hand, I would raise and hope he intially raised because he had an AK suited. If he comes over the top. I say go all in. Then you will have penlty of time to spend the rest of the night drinking heavily as you lement," Why did I call him?" and "Damn I was the first guy out. "

[pogiolithis]

I really don't see why you would fold here. You called his raise with AJ, so you're really looking to see a J because most likely if you hit your A your out kicked. Were you really looking to flop two-pair or trips? Why call a raise pre-flop, hit the one card you need and then fold to a weak bet. By weak I mean it's not even a pot sized bet. It's a weak feeler bet to see if you paired up. But it's not a high enough bet that screams over-pair. It's weak, and you should punish him for it. If this guy had QQ, KK or AA do you really think he would let you stay in for so cheap? Or what he would do is check the flop see if you bet and then come over the top huge. If he had a set why would he bet on such a junk flop. If he was hoping you had a Jack he would check raise you. This is why I don't think he has an over pair just yet -- I'm thinking more along the lines of AK.So what I would do here is raise him the pot. This lets him know your not messing around and that most likely you have a J with a good kicker or a set but, most likely a J. It also appears that if he were to push all-in the you would call. So if doesn't have an over-pair he can't call. If he pushes all-in here then I fold. Because then he knows I have a J and still is not worried -- which most likely means over-pair. If he calls, he is first to act so if a K or a Q hit you get to see what he does. Which either he will push all-in or check. I think check, he's not going to push any more money in the pot unless he feels he can beat the J. You've taken control of the hand and left yourself a way out if you run in to an all-in.It's early in the tournament so you can make the move and if he comes over the top you can get away from it with out losing a ton of money. Which is going to be much harder in later rounds. that's how I would play it.

[matthiggins]

I may have missed it, but what kind of stack do you start out with here? That would help with my decision. if its 220 out of 10,000 I probably raise, hoping he's on a draw and that'll make him fold. If he reraises, I'm out. If he calls, he's closer to hitting his draw than i thought, so study the next card and his decisions closely. However, if it's a larger portion of my stack (1,000), which I assume it is after reading it a few times, I would've folded preflop. Why call a 6X raise the first hand with marginal hole cards? I would put that raise into memory and see what kind of poker this guy plays over the next few hands. He could be extremely tight and happened to catch A-A or K-K the first hand. Or he could be more of a loose cannon that shoots out huge raises on draws or bluffs. Don't learn about your opponent at this big of an expense. Hopefully, let some others at the table (when you don't have the cards) take this guy on the next few hands and try to learn. One thing that I thought as I read the initial post. a 6X raise...he's got AK or AQ suited, which dominates my A-J. The J on the flop was a great card for me, but with such a big bet he either came out with a low pair and flopped a set, or is AA, KK or QQ. Had the positions been reversed and I checked, then he made that big bet, I'd probably come over the top assuming he's trying to steal it, but from first position, I'd take that raise serious, and assume he's got my jacks dominated.

[Smasharoo]

I really don't see why you would fold here. You called his raise with AJ, so you're really looking to see a J because most likely if you hit your A your out kicked. Were you really looking to flop two-pair or trips? Why call a raise pre-flop, hit the one card you need and then fold to a weak bet.It's not a weak bet. It's an automatic bet. It tells you nothing. It means he still has two cards.By weak I mean it's not even a pot sized bet. Pfft. The pot is 270 and he bets 220. It's a pot sized bet for all practical purposes. If there was "bet pot" button it'd be a pot sized bet.It's a weak feeler bet to see if you paired up. But it's not a high enough bet that screams over-pair.It screams "call me" is what it screams. It's weak, and you should punish him for it. If this guy had QQ, KK or AA do you really think he would let you stay in for so cheap? Or what he would do is check the flop see if you bet and then come over the top huge. If he had a set why would he bet on such a junk flop. If he was hoping you had a Jack he would check raise you. This is why I don't think he has an over pair just yet -- I'm thinking more along the lines of AK.If he had QQ he'd make this bet.If he had AA he'd make this bet.If he had 9T he'd make this bet.If he had AK he'd make this bet.This bet tells you nothing. Really. Absolutley nothing. So what I would do here is raise him the pot. He pushes.Instnatly.With anything.This lets him know your not messing around and that most likely you have a J with a good kicker or a set but, most likely a J. It also appears that if he were to push all-in the you would call. So if doesn't have an over-pair he can't call. If he pushes all-in here then I fold. Because then he knows I have a J and still is not worried -- which most likely means over-pair.Pushing here is AUTMOATIC for him. You fold, thanks for the chip spewing goodness, pal. If he calls, he is first to act so if a K or a Q hit you get to see what he does. Which either he will push all-in or check. I think check, he's not going to push any more money in the pot unless he feels he can beat the J. You've taken control of the hand and left yourself a way out if you run in to an all-in.If he calls you're almost allways dead to anything but a jack.Calling represents a STRONGER hand than him pushing here, dont' you understand that? He doesn't call with AK, he pushes. Without thinking twice. He CALLS with JJ, maybe with AA.It's early in the tournament so you can make the move and if he comes over the top you can get away from it with out losing a ton of money. Which is going to be much harder in later rounds.Are you insane? You've allready committed 50 big blinds to this hand with your recomended play, how many you do you reckon you began the tournament with? You're probably committed to half your stack at this point because you ludicrously over-read an automatic bet here and are GUESSING RANDOMLY at what to do with ABSOLUTELY NO MORE information about what he's holding now than when he bet out originally. When he pushes if you bet, and he will, it is again, automatic, as your fold will be.Good job on blowing half your chips for no particular reason rather than letting go 1/10th of them when you don't have a claer play here.[b]that's how I would play it.[/.b]Good thinking. We should play together sometime.

[darksung]

Your so radical smasharoo.I think your wrong all the way. Why would he push all-in with nothing, why would he risk his tournament life on nothing, when you've just showed strenght by raising him? Not everyone has the heart to make an all-in re-raise here. Maybe you have, and maybe you suck also

[pogiolithis]

I misread... I thought the pot was around $440, I also realize now that it's the first hand. That changes things a little. I would fold.Sorry guys, next time I will read the post twice before I post. Does this mean I have to wear a Dunce Cap?

[Smasharoo]

Your so radical smasharoo.I think your wrong all the way. Why would he push all-in with nothing, why would he risk his tournament life on nothing, when you've just showed strenght by raising him? Not everyone has the heart to make an all-in re-raise here. Maybe you have, and maybe you suck alsoFirst of all, he doesn't have nothing, he has a hand that he raised 6X the BB with pre-flop that we called with garbage (1st mistake). It's quite possible, if not likely, that AJ is STILL BEHIND HERE.Secondly, playing back at a pot sied raise here is automatic for anyone who isn't a complete coward or a moron.What are you possibly going to have that I think you'll call an all in with that you would respond with a weak meaningless pot sized re-raise?What's your raise supposed to do, honestly?Is it a play at the pot? Sure looks like it when I see it, a weak play to see if I have anything and will lay it down here.You know what it sure as hell doesn't look like? Anything you'd be willing to call an all in with. have you had kmuch sucess in tournments with this kind of play? Raising the pre-flop raiser's opening bet?Work much for you?

[halvey7]

smasharoo, after reading your posts I couldn't find a single thing that I thought was even a decent move besides floding preflop, the stupidest thing you said there was that it's an automatic all-in after the raise, please explain why your going to reraise allin with AK when you completely missed the flop, it's a terrible play and you will end up watching the rest of the tournament from the rails, stick to the $1 tourneys on stars man, at least you won't lose as much money...

[Bubba83]

darksung said:

If he's on a draw like you said he might be, first, he has big cards or a pocket pair, or he wouldn't have raised pre-flop 4-5 suited or whatever.On a call, after the minimum raise, he either had A-K and tried to push you out, or 10-10, 9-9.So, he will check on the next card.  And then you push, but not all of your chips.

I don't like your theory of min raising his 220 to 440 total on the flop. The problem is you've already put 120 into the hand and now you're going to put 440 more in, that's a total of 560 chips on the first hand of the tournament to find out where your hand is at? Depending on how many chips you started with, you are risking most of them on this hand just to find out where you are at. Fold preflop.

[Smasharoo]

halvey7 said:

smasharoo, after reading your posts I couldn't find a single thing that I thought was even a decent move besides floding preflop, the stupidest thing you said there was that it's an automatic all-in after the raise, please explain why your going to reraise allin with AK when you completely missed the flop, it's a terrible play and you will end up watching the rest of the tournament from the rails, stick to the $1 tourneys on stars man, at least you won't lose as much money...

Becuase I have AK, 1/3 of my stacfk is committed to the pot allready and your bet shows an inclination to fold if I push. My fold equity is high, and I very likely have outs if you call.It's an autmoatic play. It's automatic with 72o.I'm not sure what I can do make something so blatantly simplistic clear to you here. I'll see if I can't get a puppet show together perhaps, or have some sort of flash cartoon drawn up to explain it to your more clearly.If you think pushing here with anything is a terrible play, you really don't have a fundemental grasp of NL play in tournaments.

[jayboogie]

it really depends who your playing against. I wouldn't say it's an automatic push by the other player. I'd put a player all-in that wouldnt be able to fold top pair and top kicker though.If your going to play AJ after a raise, then you gotta know what to do when you do hit your ideal flop. Top pair and top kicker is what you want to see, if you don't know how to play this post-flop, then you shouldn't have gotten into the hand in the first place. Also, you gotta see what kinda player he is, if he's the typical internet player. I think he held AK judging from his bet and he was trying to pick up the pot. If he had an overpair, I think he likely would have checked, let you bet out and raised you all-in.