16 replies to this topic

[tskillz187]

I have about $750 I'm pretty sure I have everyone of importance covered in this hand. Everyone has around $400-700 though.

I'm on button with 99, there is a live straddle and loose UTG player makes it 45, 2 callers in front I call, BB calls. 5 to the flop.

Flop is 355 rainbow. Checks to me. I check behind.

Turn 3556 BB checks, UTG raiser bets 75, 1 fold, Tightish Korean girl calls 75, and it's to me. Korean and UTG each have about 500 behind and BB has about 175.

[No_Neck]

I have about $750 I'm pretty sure I have everyone of importance covered in this hand. Everyone has around $400-700 though.

I'm on button with 99, there is a live straddle and loose UTG player makes it 45, 2 callers in front I call, BB calls. 5 to the flop.

Flop is 355 rainbow. Checks to me. I check behind.

Turn 3556 BB checks, UTG raiser bets 75, 1 fold, Tightish Korean girl calls 75, and it's to me. Korean and UTG each have about 500 behind and BB has about 175.

First I would have bet the flop. On the turn I think it is a choice between call or fold. I would lean towards calling. There are somany people in the pot and you have in no way shown defined your hand. You really want to get to showdown for cheap here.

and I am assuming this is a rainbow board?

[tskillz187]

Yeah it's still rainbow on the turn.

[run_goot]

You needed to do something on the flop with your position and the overpair. Just call here.

[No_Neck]

what does everyone think about raising the turn, and going for a free showdown on the river? Odd play I know but if you bet what the BB has left it could get UTG to throw away a better hand, and then you are left with the short stack, if the short stack pushes though you have to call whatever small amount is left, and you will probably be behind...

[Sefaje]

Any of your 3 options has an argument here. Folding is the safest, low-variance play.

Calling allows you to (hopefully) re-evaluate on the river.

Raising will tell you where pretty well where you stand in the hand. You're squeezing everyone but the tight girl. The BB will need a very strong hand to play with a bet/call/raise in front of him, and UTG will need a strong hand because his bet was called/raised. The player I worry about most is the tight girl who called. Your read is that she's tight --- but is she the type to raise with 75/A5 here or to just call? Could anyone have a full-house? UTG's bet was like 1/3 pot. This kind of bet either wants to maybe win the pot cheaply or is a very strong hand not trying to scare everyone away. Any info as to which you think it might be?

Since this is a live game any info you could give about stuff like that would be fantastic.

I lean towards raising it smallish. You're in position, which is the most important part. If everyone/anyone just calls your bet, they're likely to check to you on the river. If someone raises you again on the turn, you can fold pretty easily. I like to raise to about 225 here because you're giving yourself 1.67:1 odds to take this pot down, 2.33:1 if you get 1 caller, and 3:1 if you get 2 callers. Also a raise like this one is one that hands you beat can still call, which is valuable, but will usually fold, which is valuable.

Yeah, I like a raise. Since you won't have to show any more aggression since you're in position and it's fairly likely you have the best hand I think popping it anywhere from like 200-250. The only line that a villain could take to make us make a hard decision after this is to call the turn and bet the river -- but even then I think we won't be in too tough of a spot.

Edit: Damn you No_Neck!

[tskillz187]

Raising will tell you where pretty well where you stand in the hand. The BB will need a very strong hand to play with a bet/call/raise in front of him, and UTG will need a strong hand because his bet was called/raised. The player I worry about most is the tight girl who called. Your read is that she's tight --- but is she the type to raise with 75/A5 here or to just call? Could anyone have a full-house? UTG's bet was like 1/3 pot. This kind of bet either wants to maybe win the pot cheaply or is a very strong hand not trying to scare everyone away. Any info as to which you think it might be?

Since this is a live game any info you could give about stuff like that would be fantastic.

The tightish Korean girl is not very good. From all my experience every woman that plays in this game is tight and VERY straight forward, they will try and end hands that they believe they are ahead in immediately. Her call of 75 tells me she has 77, 88, or 1010. She would have Reraised PF with JJ but the other PPs she would hope to hit a set on. If she had top boat she'd raise, quads she'd probably still raise and she's too scared to want to play a big pot with 44 like this.

BB who has checked just got at the table I really have no read on him, except for in this hand he has checked twice, so I'm assuming check is weak. The only player I am worried about is UTG raiser. He is loose and very tricky, I don't think he respects me much as a player and thinks that he will easily trap me. I think he also thinks I only play very big PPs and he's waiting to get me in a spot to take all of my chips with.

Something about the way he was looking at me on the flop made me think to check, I thought he might make a big move over the top, seeing as 553 is a flop that would not hit me very hard and I would have reraised him PF with something like JJ-AA.

When the $75 gets to me I look down at my chips, UTG raiser says, if you're gonna raise don't make it too much. I don't know what to think of this.

[Sefaje]

The tightish Korean girl is not very good. From all my experience every woman that plays in this game is tight and VERY straight forward, they will try and end hands that they believe they are ahead in immediately. Her call of 75 tells me she has 77, 88, or 1010. She would have Reraised PF with JJ but the other PPs she would hope to hit a set on. If she had top boat she'd raise, quads she'd probably still raise and she's too scared to want to play a big pot with 44 like this.

BB who has checked just got at the table I really have no read on him, except for in this hand he has checked twice, so I'm assuming check is weak. The only player I am worried about is UTG raiser. He is loose and very tricky, I don't think he respects me much as a player and thinks that he will easily trap me. I think he also thinks I only play very big PPs and he's waiting to get me in a spot to take all of my chips with.

Something about the way he was looking at me on the flop made me think to check, I thought he might make a big move over the top, seeing as 553 is a flop that would not hit me very hard and I would have reraised him PF with something like JJ-AA.

When the $75 gets to me I look down at my chips, UTG raiser says, if you're gonna raise don't make it too much. I don't know what to think of this.

Okay, well the only thing I see that UTG could have that hit this board hard is a low pair. Would he fold a high pair here? With the tight girl calling and you (who he views as tight) raising? Also, if he does call the turn and check the river, do you think you could get him to fold a better hand with a bet? I realize I'm answering your questions with questions but that's often the best advice you can get on a hand -- is what questions to ask yourself about the players at the table during the hand.

In my experience, when people say "raise it small" they really want you to raise it small. In which case I feel like UTG would have a pair higher than sixes. You said "he wants to trap you and take all your chips", so that makes me think he wants a very strong hand to fight you with. Which if he has one in this hand, he'll tell you by either raising the turn again or betting the river --- and his view of you probably wouldn't allow him to do that without something much better than 99.

Then of course there's the chance he has KQ or something ridiculous in this hand --- in which case a raise is still correct. There are others in this thread that are saying call, but that obviously gives you no chance of winning the hand on the turn and will very frequently be facing a bet on the river with no additional info.

[tskillz187]

Okay, well the only thing I see that UTG could have that hit this board hard is a low pair. Would he fold a high pair here? With the tight girl calling and you (who he views as tight) raising? Also, if he does call the turn and check the river, do you think you could get him to fold a better hand with a bet? I realize I'm answering your questions with questions but that's often the best advice you can get on a hand -- is what questions to ask yourself about the players at the table during the hand.

In my experience, when people say "raise it small" they really want you to raise it small. In which case I feel like UTG would have a pair higher than sixes. You said "he wants to trap you and take all your chips", so that makes me think he wants a very strong hand to fight you with. Which if he has one in this hand, he'll tell you by either raising the turn again or betting the river --- and his view of you probably wouldn't allow him to do that without something much better than 99.

Then of course there's the chance he has KQ or something ridiculous in this hand --- in which case a raise is still correct. There are others in this thread that are saying call, but that obviously gives you no chance of winning the hand on the turn and will very frequently be facing a bet on the river with no additional info.

UTG could certainly have a 5. His pf raise means not much to me, he could do that with almost any two suited cards, so a5,k5,q5 suited shouldn't be discounted, nor should 25, 35, 45, 56, 57, 58. Almost anything connected or suited he could raise with. Especially with a straddle out there to try and create big action with a deceiving hand.

I believe he thinks he is good enough to play oop with trash and figure out what the tight weak players (as he views them) have.

If I raise on the turn I am raising small to something like $200-230, because that puts BB all in (who I'm not really worried about, he has shown no interest in the hand), it puts a stop to his $75 shennanigans and probably gets me a free show down unless he has a 5 (in which case I'm assuming he reraises on turn and I muck) and I think the Korean girl is a non factor. If she calls my raise I will fire at her again on the river because I know she has 77, 88, or 1010 and will not lose her whole stack to me with it.

If I raise and UTG raiser calls me I done with the hand barring I hit the miracle 9. He will not peel here to put a move on me OOP when the pot has $600 in it and our stacks are around $430. That just doesn't make sense as I am representing having something. Problem is if I raise I don't even know what I am representing. My exact hand? 99? Maybe 1010 or AK trying to take down a pot that I think everyone is weak in. I guess 66 and 56 make sense, but I don't think they think I'm playing those hands PF, especially for $45.

Him saying raise it small doesn't make sense. Why would he want me to raise it small? Did he fire with a 4 and he's putting me on an overpair to the board? Does he have something like 46, or does he actually want me to raise it big and he has a 5 sitting in his hand and wants me to "protect" my overpair.

[tskillz187]

I ended up raising to $200. The BB called all in, the UTG raiser called, and the tight Korean girl called. I rivered the two outter and scooped a sizeable pot.

[mtdesmoines]

I ended up raising to $200. The BB called all in, the UTG raiser called, and the tight Korean girl called. I rivered the two outter and scooped a sizeable pot.

Nice job, luck box.

[Acid_Knight]

I ended up raising to $200. The BB called all in, the UTG raiser called, and the tight Korean girl called. I rivered the two outter and scooped a sizeable pot.

I was honestly on the fence between calling and raising until you said that the UTG player tried to discourage you from making a big raise. In my experience, most players aren't good enough to use table talk to get you to do something. If he says don't raise too big, he likely doesn't want you raising at all and that is what would lead me to make the raise you made. Whether or not your were behind, if it checked to you on the river, then you made a good raise becuase had you missed, you'd have bought your showdown for that price anyway.

Oh yeah. BET THE FLOP!! I imagine you flat called preflop to make sure you saw a good flop before you invested more money. Well, that's a great flop for you, so you need to bet it.

[Naismith]

I ended up raising to $200. The BB called all in, the UTG raiser called, and the tight Korean girl called. I rivered the two outter and scooped a sizeable pot.

Out of curiousity, what'd they have?

[tskillz187]

Out of curiousity, what'd they have?

It was pretty interesting. I played the hand the only way I could have to win, even though I probably played it wrong, just the way the people were sitting and the way the betting went down.

BB who had checked twice had 47 for a turned straight. UTG tricky guy had K5 for flopped trips. Tight Korean had 1010. UTG said that after BB called my all in he knew he was behind to BB and raising all in would just push me out of the hand, so he called hoping to fill on the river and hoping I would bet again. I don't really buy that argument, I think he just made a mistake and didnt know whether to call, raise, or fold and hedged his bet with a call. He said he called and wanted to check the river so that if I had QQ-AA I would bet the river again and he could win the side pot. But, I did bet the river all in and him and the korean girl both folded and the 9 was a rather harmless looking card.

[tskillz187]

Whether or not your were behind, if it checked to you on the river, then you made a good raise becuase had you missed, you'd have bought your showdown for that price anyway.

This is exactly why I raised, I thought if I was ahead in the hand I could take it down right there and possibly have tight Korean call me with 77 or 88 and if I was behind that I would be checked to on the river in the hopes of one of the players C/R me.

Oh yeah. BET THE FLOP!! I imagine you flat called preflop to make sure you saw a good flop before you invested more money. Well, that's a great flop for you, so you need to bet it.

I just don't know if I agree with this. I really think the UTG loose player would have C/R me regardless of cards and I don't think my hand is strong enough to face that pressure. If my image wasn't one where they were only pegging me to 1010+ then I would bet here. Something about UTG made me want to check this flop (though it wasn't any kind of strong read or I wouldn't have raised him on the turn!)

In this situation had I led out on the flop and just been smooth called by UTG and Korean girl I probably would have stacked UTG by the river because I'm assuming the turn would have checked around.

[Acid_Knight]

I just don't know if I agree with this. I really think the UTG loose player would have C/R me regardless of cards and I don't think my hand is strong enough to face that pressure. If my image wasn't one where they were only pegging me to 1010+ then I would bet here. Something about UTG made me want to check this flop (though it wasn't any kind of strong read or I wouldn't have raised him on the turn!)

In this situation had I led out on the flop and just been smooth called by UTG and Korean girl I probably would have stacked UTG by the river because I'm assuming the turn would have checked around.

The thing with your hand is that it is often good right now. If UTG is willing and capable of check-raise bluffing you, then good for him. Make him make a move at you, don't make your decisions harder on later streets becuase you didn't want to pay for a little information on the earlier ones. If the turn rolls off as an A and you let him get there for free with A2, then you've made a large mistake. Bet the flop and evaluate later if he CRs you.

[Naismith]

How awesomely did UTG play this hand?