Ace Magnets! Let My Cowboys Go?

[SlackerInc 0]

But I really hate to be one of those people who is so enamoured with the memories of his premium preflop hand that he lets that blind him to the reality that those days are long past and it's time to let the hand go and move on. Though he certainly might be on a hearts draw or something. Should I have bet the turn? I just hate to build up a pot against someone who called my raise with Ax.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)UTG (t2335)Hero (t2210)SB (t2890)BB (t1565)Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K. 1 fold, Hero raises to t300, SB calls t250, 1 fold.Flop: (t700) 8, A, J(2 players)SB checks, Hero bets t300, SB calls t300.Turn: (t1300) 4(2 players)SB checks, Hero checks.River: (t1300) 8(2 players)SB bets t500, Hero...?

[jmbreslin 0]

I think if he called with Ax, he probably would have bet out on the flop. Looks more likely that he was chasing the heart draw and then decided to throw out a bluff on the river when you showed weakness on the turn. Which leads to the question: why did you check through on the turn? Why not keep up the pressure? If he called your bet on the turn, he probably would have checked the river giving you the opportunity to go to showdown.

[SlackerInc 0]

I think if he called with Ax, he probably would have bet out on the flop. Looks more likely that he was chasing the heart draw and then decided to throw out a bluff on the river when you showed weakness on the turn. Which leads to the question: why did you check through on the turn? Why not keep up the pressure? If he called your bet on the turn, he probably would have checked the river giving you the opportunity to go to showdown.

Yeah, I felt weak about the turn check. I just, even though I didn't really think he had the ace, remembered other people who just kept on betting into me when I had a good ace that hit the flop, and their showing KK in the end and my kind of smirking at them. I didn't want to be "that guy", kwim? I probably should have at least thrown out a kind of blocking bet though.

[StupidKid 0]

With an A on the flop I'd probably expect the check raise on the flop to you 'seemingly' continuation bet, but he may have played this different. I'd probably call on the river,hoping for QJhearts or something but maybe thats because I'm a massive donkey. I think a turn bet would have really found out if he had the Ace.

[outsider13 0]

As played out, it looks to me like a weak A more than a flush draw. Either way, playing strong through the turn probably would have taken the pot.If it were a QJh, you can guarantee it would be a push rather than a bet leaving hero with 3.5:1 pot odds.

[SlackerInc 0]

Results:I made a crying call, and my kings did in fact hold up. I think I would have folded to a bigger bet though.ETA: this hand, and the one where I had the (weak) full house, illustrate why I've been building up my bankroll with these $3.25 6-man turbos lately. It seems like over and over, I get to showdown with medium strength hands, there's that moment where I'm waiting to see if I'm beat, and then as villain's little circle continues to flash without showing cards, I realise that I'm not beat (hallelujah!) and that the words "Muck" are going to appear any moment.

[ChrisRichey 1]

SI, please wait a little longer before posting results. I wasn't even awake!

[outsider13 0]

Did he pair the J or have the draw, or both? If it was any of those, he made the mistake of betting too low.....which is good for you though

[cubbybri 0]

Well congratz!!! Just remember from these last couple posts, you are not playing perfect poker but the results have been in your favour. You will have weak competition in this level of turbo. Just keep learning so that when your bankroll allows you to jump up, you will not be a results oriented player. It's nice to win when you have some leaks but we're all here to try to close those up. I wish I could close mine a little quicker as my recent results have been the exact opposite to yours. Keep learning and good luck(skill).

[CobaltBlue 662]

I think if he called with Ax, he probably would have bet out on the flop.

:icon_eh:I really don't see any basis of a read to support that argument. Bad players are just as likely to donkbet as check/call as check/raise with Ax in this spot.On the flop, I prefer betting a bit more than this...the flop's coordinated enough that we need to dissuade the draws. I don't hate checking the turn, though I think I agree with the others that betting's better. As played, gotta call the river.Another factor that would help out would be the point in the tournament that you're at (payouts and things of that nature).

[outsider13 0]

On the flop, I prefer betting a bit more than this...the flop's coordinated enough that we need to dissuade the draws. I don't hate checking the turn, though I think I agree with the others that betting's better. As played, gotta call the river.

I looked at that as well, but a probe bet should be about 1/3 of the pot. Does that change at all when you are in position with the villain checking ahead of you?

[SlackerInc 0]

SI, please wait a little longer before posting results. I wasn't even awake!

Whoops, sorry!! Should I go back and edit it out?Cubby, the funny thing is that in the space of a couple days, I've been told I was too weak-tight in a couple folds, and now too loose in a couple calls! I actually have an easier time seeing the "too loose" arguments; still trying to process how to differentiate those others (the ones against tskillz in the strat tournament) from these.Outsider, I'm really not sure what he had. I think it was one of those "Muck" deals where you don't get to see.Cobalt, sorry: I play so many of these (usually at least a half dozen a day, every day) I forget the payouts are not standard knowledge. Top two get paid (roughly 2x and 4x buyin). Blinds go up every 5 min.

[outsider13 0]

Outsider, I'm really not sure what he had. I think it was one of those "Muck" deals where you don't get to see.

If it goes to showdown, it's in the hand history. It will show what he mucked.

[jmbreslin 0]

:icon_eh:I really don't see any basis of a read to support that argument. Bad players are just as likely to donkbet as check/call as check/raise with Ax in this spot.

That's true, I'm giving players at this level too much credit again...

[gobears 0]

This is a tough hand because of the stack sizes. I agree that you should fire a CB of around 500 after that flop to discourage the draws. If you fire on the turn, you are pot committed so I actually like the check behind - you are giving a free card but it could induce a bluff on the river.Problem with firing on the turn is that a better hand will call you while a worst hand will fold. If your stack was deeper, then I could see firing a second bullet on the turn to discourage any draws.

[Zach6668 513]

This is a tough hand because of the stack sizes. I agree that you should fire a CB of around 500 after that flop to discourage the draws. If you fire on the turn, you are pot committed so I actually like the check behind - you are giving a free card but it could induce a bluff on the river.Problem with firing on the turn is that a better hand will call you while a worst hand will fold. If your stack was deeper, then I could see firing a second bullet on the turn to discourage any draws.

Do you call the river bet, as played, then?

[gobears 0]

Do you call the river bet, as played, then?

Yes, I'd have to call there getting that price. We still have 1100 if we lose the pot.

[cubbybri 0]

Whoops, sorry!! Should I go back and edit it out?Cubby, the funny thing is that in the space of a couple days, I've been told I was too weak-tight in a couple folds, and now too loose in a couple calls! I actually have an easier time seeing the "too loose" arguments; still trying to process how to differentiate those others (the ones against tskillz in the strat tournament) from these.Outsider, I'm really not sure what he had. I think it was one of those "Muck" deals where you don't get to see.Cobalt, sorry: I play so many of these (usually at least a half dozen a day, every day) I forget the payouts are not standard knowledge. Top two get paid (roughly 2x and 4x buyin). Blinds go up every 5 min.

Well this hand, I looked it over and I think you needed to call. I would have bet again on the turn. River bet by villain screams he doesn't want a call to me. I don't think call was bad, just a turn bet would better define what you are up against. I nice sized turn bet may have folded the flush draw and if he had a ace(rag or strong) he may have played back at you.I just think you were calling a little blind.The full house hand, I just feel that villain was representing something larger than what he had. If you aren't buying it, then call, I just don't see this call working very often.Just comes from experience and boy I could use me some more of that hehe.Good luck

[tskillz187 0]

I bet a little more on the flop, I play it the same after and DEFINITELY make the river call. Keep pots small, look him up with an ok hand. That's what you've done, even by him throwing the river bet out there it's not enough to blast you off. The whole point of keeping pots small is so that people can't bluff you because you've kept it small enough to call down and if they don't see this then they will feed you chips, if they do see this then they will stop bluffing at you. If you keep the pot small though you HAVE TO call, or else there really is no point in keeping it small in the first place.

[jmbreslin 0]

Problem with firing on the turn is that a better hand will call you while a worst hand will fold. If your stack was deeper, then I could see firing a second bullet on the turn to discourage any draws.

Gives you more information, doesn't it? Now you're stuck wondering, does he have the Ace or did he miss his draw? Lots of players will incorrectly call bets on the flop when chasing a draw, but they're less likely to call an additional turn bet. If I am ahead in this situation, I'd much rather take down the pot on the turn than hope he misses his draw and throws out a bluff on the river.

[tskillz187 0]

BTW this is a horrible river bluff by villain, just horrible. He needs to bet more and then you can't call, or it makes it a much tougher call. This was a heartless bluff attempt, you literally cant fold any hand that has connected with anything.

[Jdr999 0]

I would raise more pre-flop to make it look like a steal attempt. Also, bet more on flop.

[gobears 0]

Gives you more information, doesn't it? Now you're stuck wondering, does he have the Ace or did he miss his draw? Lots of players will incorrectly call bets on the flop when chasing a draw, but they're less likely to call an additional turn bet. If I am ahead in this situation, I'd much rather take down the pot on the turn than hope he misses his draw and throws out a bluff on the river.

I'd feel better about firing another bullet if we had an ace in our hand. Because of our stack size, if you bet the turn, you are going to the river and you could be drawing to two outs. The key is that you might not be ahead on the turn because you only have 2nd pair on that board.I'm willing to give a free card here to villain to get to showdown cheaply. And it gives villain incentive to bet the river with a worse hand where he would have folded to our turn bet instead. If villain has a jack for example, he might think that his jack is good - by checking the turn, we induce a river bet or even a bluff.By checking the turn, it also allows us to fold the river if villain decides to push all-in.

[SlackerInc 0]

I'd feel better about firing another bullet if we had an ace in our hand. Because of our stack size, if you bet the turn, you are going to the river and you could be drawing to two outs. The key is that you might not be ahead on the turn because you only have 2nd pair on that board.I'm willing to give a free card here to villain to get to showdown cheaply. And it gives villain incentive to bet the river with a worse hand where he would have folded to our turn bet instead. If villain has a jack for example, he might think that his jack is good - by checking the turn, we induce a river bet or even a bluff.By checking the turn, it also allows us to fold the river if villain decides to push all-in.

A lot of good analysis from everyone, but this is the post that resonates the most with me.

[jmbreslin 0]

I guess what I don't understand is that by checking the turn and letting him bet on the river you don't know whether he has the A, a J, or is throwing out a bluff bet. Wouldn't you only want to induce a river bet if you know you're ahead?