Check-raise On The Flop Deep In A $4-180

[HijackedAffairs 0]

Poker StarsNo Limit Holdem TournamentBlinds: t1000/t2000(Ante: t100)6 playersHERO - 58126 in chipsVillain - 29690 in chipsConverterPre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with :D UTG raises to t4000, 4 folds, Hero calls t2000 (pot was t7600).Flop: :D (t9600, 2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets t6000, Hero raises to t20000. . .I think the Villain's range is pretty large K10s or better preflop. Although, the min-raise is not his normal raise. He has been c-betting a lot. He's a reasonably solid player from what I can decipher.Do you like the check-raise here? Prefer leading out? Check-call? Check-fold?

[StupidKid 0]

Poker StarsNo Limit Holdem TournamentBlinds: t1000/t2000(Ante: t100)6 playersConverterPre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with :D UTG raises to t4000, 4 folds, Hero calls t2000 (pot was t7600).Flop: :D (t9600, 2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets t6000, Hero raises to t20000. . .I think the Villain's range is pretty large K10s or better preflop. Although, the min-raise is not his normal raise. He has been c-betting a lot. He's a reasonably solid player from what I can decipher.Do you like the check-raise here? Prefer leading out? Check-call? Check-fold?

Stack sizes? Can you fold if he comes over the top or are you pot committed with that raise? I presume if he came over the top you were beat. I like the check raise presuming that Villain has c-bet like this before, he makes this bet whether he hits the flop or not so it gives u information. Good play, pretty standard, I presume it went badly since you've posted it?

[Zach6668 513]

StupidKid,I've read maybe 5 posts by you today.Stick around/post more.- Zach

[HijackedAffairs 0]

Edited to include stack sizes. It might be standard, but I wasn't sure.

[Zach6668 513]

I used to do this all of the time.The problem is, when does he ever call with worse hands? I mean, some donks will still call with their PPs, but most players muck with no piece of this.Does anyone just like calling here and seeing what he does on the turn?

[ChrisRichey 1]

StupidKid,I've read maybe 5 posts by you today.Stick around/post more.- Zach

Agreed.

I used to do this all of the time.The problem is, when does he ever call with worse hands? I mean, some donks will still call with their PPs, but most players muck with no piece of this.Does anyone just like calling here and seeing what he does on the turn?

OOP, I don't see this as an option. TPGK isn't really the type of hand we should be looking to hit here with QJd. I would def prefer some sort of straight or flush draw to go with our pair. Maybe it's a little weak/tight, but I think check/folding is the best play at this point. If we fold we still have an M of 7, and should be able to find a better spot than this. A read on the villain would be nice, because leading 5kish on the flop is also an option.

[outsider13 0]

I always worry about UTG min raises. I wouldn't be surprised to see KK or AA or less likely QQ. As played, with that flop it would be very hard not to c/c or play it like you did.

[StupidKid 0]

StupidKid,I've read maybe 5 posts by you today.Stick around/post more.- Zach

Cheers.I also agree with ChrisRichey though, I'd feel more comfortable if i had some sort of straight/flush draw on this board obviously, I also think C-Raising to 14K would do about the same thing. Since he only has about that much back now aswell I'm not sure he'd c-bet with nothing, I feel with nothing he might just shove. Could be looking for action with that bet really. I'm now just really interested in whether it worked or not.

[cubbybri 0]

Saying he is reasonably solid and this is not his standard size bet I think we have need for concern here. It look like he is roping you in. I think you are beat but I know I would have a hard time just letting it go. Have you ever seen a showdown from a min raise or is this his first.Big stacks I would let go but since he is short, this is either a super strong play or a bluff.I'm leaning to a fold but if he has had any trickiness in him, I could be understanding to the c/r.Is just calling an option here. Is he the type to cb on the turn as well. If he is one to slow down with a weak hand, I may be tepted to call.Just going on a solid player doing something out of the norm, looking weak, probably means strong though and I see you against the AA KK. If he was starting with a semi strong hand, I see him pushing or standard raising still with QQ- AK- etc.This is a toughie IMO. Good post.

[trystero 0]

I don't understand how people can advocate a check/fold line. That's about as results-oriented as it gets (operating under the assumption that the OP lost this hand). If you aren't prepared to fight back when you hit top pair here then just fold preflop. You can't look to hit and play only with monsters.This hand is rather standard as played. I do like Zach's suggestion to c/c though so that we get more value from hands we're beating (and so we can also re-evaluate the turn as well, as we have to beware getting outdrawn by overcards).

[ChrisRichey 1]

We're not look for a flop of KTA all diamonds in order to play this hand, but you need some sort of draw in order to go any further imo. Floating somebody OOP is very tough to do, and if a non-heart hits on the turn he may lead again simply putting us on a flush draw. What do you do when he bets on the turn again? We're not extremely desperate yet, and I don't feel like putting my tourney life on the line with TP3K to an utg minraise.

[Zach6668 513]

We're not look for a flop of KTA all diamonds in order to play this hand, but you need some sort of draw in order to go any further imo. Floating somebody OOP is very tough to do, and if a non-heart hits on the turn he may lead again simply putting us on a flush draw. What do you do when he bets on the turn again? We're not extremely desperate yet, and I don't feel like putting my tourney life on the line with TP3K to an utg minraise.

Why do you insist that this is a float?

[gobears 0]

I like the check/call here - if villain is a reasonable solid player then he's looking for a cheap showdown which is what we are hoping for. The c/r gets worst hands to fold and we lose our chips to better hands.If a blank falls on the turn and villain bets out strong again, I would fold. Betting out on a heart if one falls on the turn to represent a flush is a possible play too depending on our read of villain.

[HijackedAffairs 0]

We're not look for a flop of KTA all diamonds in order to play this hand, but you need some sort of draw in order to go any further imo. Floating somebody OOP is very tough to do, and if a non-heart hits on the turn he may lead again simply putting us on a flush draw. What do you do when he bets on the turn again? We're not extremely desperate yet, and I don't feel like putting my tourney life on the line with TP3K to an utg minraise.

I think you are mixed up. Hero has 58,000 and Villain has 30,000 not vice versa. And to shed more light on the min-raising: The table was pretty tight and min-raises would often take down the blinds. It didn't seem that suspicious and I thought he could have done it for a number of reasons.

[ChrisRichey 1]

Oh, I completely misread the OP. I thought we had 30k. Well then, if the minraise pf is standard for this table, I pretty much play it the same. I wouldn't fault you for c/c'ing though.

[jmbreslin 0]

Could some of you explain to me the benefit of check-raising in this situation? It's probably the one aspect of the game of which I have the least solid understanding. Thanks.

[Zach6668 513]

Could some of you explain to me the benefit of check-raising in this situation? It's probably the one aspect of the game of which I have the least solid understanding. Thanks.

Well, most villains will fire a continuation-bet after they raise pf, whether or not they hit.If we were to lead here, we'd probably only get called and/or raised when we are behind.On the other hand if we c/r, then he will often put money in the pot while way behind. We can c/r and he will sometimes still call with a worse hand, since he's more "committed", and, if not, we gain more chips by letting him bluff off.

[outsider13 0]

And to shed more light on the min-raising: The table was pretty tight and min-raises would often take down the blinds. It didn't seem that suspicious and I thought he could have done it for a number of reasons.

If min raises are standard, then that makes it a bit different but try to keep an eye on the position of these min raises. If they are from the button or a few off the button, that is understandable. A min raise from UTG is trying to increase the pot and WANTS action.

[HijackedAffairs 0]

Not necessarily, outsider. At a full table I'd agree but this is six-handed, remember. I giving it credence but not enough to play this weak.

[Jam-Fly 8]

Poker StarsNo Limit Holdem TournamentBlinds: t1000/t2000(Ante: t100)6 playersHERO - 58126 in chipsVillain - 29690 in chipsConverterPre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with :D UTG raises to t4000, 4 folds, Hero calls t2000 (pot was t7600).Flop: :D (t9600, 2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets t6000, Hero raises to t20000. . .I think the Villain's range is pretty large K10s or better preflop. Although, the min-raise is not his normal raise. He has been c-betting a lot. He's a reasonably solid player from what I can decipher.Do you like the check-raise here? Prefer leading out? Check-call? Check-fold?

As played, I think the ch-raise is fine. But you should ask yourself a question on that flop. Are you happy to play for all the money here, or do you want to play a small pot and get away if your beat? If you wana play a small pot, lead for 5k and fold to an all in reraise.But I prefer what you did, check raising (effectively) all in.

[Jam-Fly 8]

I always worry about UTG min raises. I wouldn't be surprised to see KK or AA or less likely QQ. As played, with that flop it would be very hard not to c/c or play it like you did.

NOOOO. imo, check calling is the WORST play. These are the typical hands where you have to decide if you have the best hand (in which case you raise) or the worst hand (in which case you muck)Check/calling is the easy way out, it just so happens to be the worstEDIT: if you are check calling to trap the player, that is marginally more acceptable, but I don't rly think you should be trapping with TP3K

[trystero 0]

NOOOO. imo, check calling is the WORST play. These are the typical hands where you have to decide if you have the best hand (in which case you raise) or the worst hand (in which case you muck)Check/calling is the easy way out, it just so happens to be the worst

No, c/c is far from the worst play. If gives villain a chance to continue donating. Raising guarantees folds from hands you're beating and calls from dominating hands. There is simply no way for you to divine whether or not you have the best hand on the flop; a check-call's an effective way to profit against villain's probable range.

[HijackedAffairs 0]

Alright results time...Villain pushes for 5k more. Hero calls. Villain flips over AA. Hero doesn't suck out. This wasn't actually my hand but I was watching my friend play from the start of the tournament to finish. I recommended this line when he was complaining about the opponent's c-betting. His normal play is to lead at the pot. Check-calling is an interesting alternative. But if we are doing this to induce another bluff, can we really call another big bet on the turn? If we fold to big turn bets, are we nullifying value by folding to bluffs?

[trystero 0]

Alright results time...Villain pushes for 5k more. Hero calls. Villain flips over AA. Hero doesn't suck out. This wasn't actually my hand but I was watching my friend play from the start of the tournament to finish. I recommended this line when he was complaining about the opponent's c-betting. His normal play is to lead at the pot. Check-calling is an interesting alternative. But if we are doing this to induce another bluff, can we really call another big bet on the turn? If we fold to big turn bets, are we nullifying value by folding to bluffs?

If you decide to c/c and not c/r then you have to make a decision to call a big turn bet. When you flop TP in this situation you're probably not getting away so you have to decide what strategy plays best against villain's probable range. I like the c/r, it is fine, as it gets you more money when you're ahead by letting villain continuation bet. It doesn't let overcards draw on the cheap. However, it guarantees that you'll be called only when woefully behind. It takes the thunder out of AK, AJ, JJ, etc. So if you c/c then you kind of have to say, 'I'm going to c/c or c/r any turn bet provided it's not an ace.' You have to decide what's a safe turn card based on the board texture. Usually it's anything but an ace. Once you've made the decision to call the flop, you can't give up on the turn and jump ship when a ten rolls off.It's like the stop n' go. Once you've made up your mind to do one you can't abort the mission when the flop carries an ace. You have to suck it up and push.In this situation, if I called the flop and checked the turn, villain would likely have gone all-in and I would've called. Same result, but I would make more $ off bluffs. Just don't instacall. That'll make you look bad.