14 replies to this topic

[mkeller3086]

Bodog 50kBlinds 20/40Hero dealt 6 4 in the CO.Relevant StacksSB (~1200)EP (2400)Hero (3000)EP calls, MP calls, Hero Calls, SB raises to 80, BB calls, EP calls, MP calls, Hero calls.Pot (400, 5 players)7 2 3 SB bets 400, EP calls, everyone else folds, Hero?After the call EP has about 1900 left and SB has about 700ish.I have no reads on EP but I have SB listed as very loose.

[tskillz187]

I fold. You need to hit on the next card because SB sure isn't letting you get to the turn without the push. SB needs more behind because he's the one with the lead in the hand, we don't know how long MP is staying in the hand for. The only implied odds I'd be sure about is the 700 goin in on the turn, which you only hit 18%ish of the time.

[mkeller3086]

the gutshot does give me 4 more outs, not sure if you noticed that. That being said I beleive I am around 25% to hit on the turn.

[Eight_Tabler]

I don't think you can fold here; you're draw is too strong. I either call or push.I probably push in this spot. You described the SB as very loose, so there is a decent chance he was betting with air and representing an overpair on a ragged flop. With no reads I put EP on 88, 99, TT or a draw, and hopefully not a set since he didn't raise the flop. Without a set it will be difficult for him to call a push for all his chips...Unless one of them flopped a set, you're in a virtual race anyways with your 12 outs. And even against a set you're not even close to dead. Given that the SB is very loose I think we have a lot of FE here; push.My second choice would be call, and see what happens on the turn. This a little safer since EP could definitely have a set, but I hate having to call with no FE on the turn if the SB pushes his last 700 - we will be committed to call that much with our 12 outs, since the pot will be at least 2300. Then again, if the SB moves all in on the turn, and EP moves over the top all in, I think then we can fold our draw; so it is a safer play to just call the flop. I'd rather be in there gambling though... Push the flop. I'd probably actually make a substantial raise that shows I'm committed to the pot on the flop (2000 or so), since pushing does sort of look like a draw to most players.

[mkeller3086]

Eight_Tabler, on Thursday, March 8th, 2007, 8:55 AM, said:

I don't think you can fold here; you're draw is too strong. I either call or push.I probably push in this spot. You described the SB as very loose, so there is a decent chance he was betting with air and representing an overpair on a ragged flop. With no reads I put EP on 88, 99, TT or a draw, and hopefully not a set since he didn't raise the flop. Without a set it will be difficult for him to call a push for all his chips...Unless one of them flopped a set, you're in a virtual race anyways with your 12 outs. And even against a set you're not even close to dead. Given that the SB is very loose I think we have a lot of FE here; push.My second choice would be call, and see what happens on the turn. This a little safer since EP could definitely have a set, but I hate having to call with no FE on the turn if the SB pushes his last 700 - we will be committed to call that much with our 12 outs, since the pot will be at least 2300. Then again, if the SB moves all in on the turn, and EP moves over the top all in, I think then we can fold our draw; so it is a safer play to just call the flop. I'd rather be in there gambling though... Push the flop. I'd probably actually make a substantial raise that shows I'm committed to the pot on the flop (2000 or so), since pushing does sort of look like a draw to most players.

I think with the small blind being loose we have close to 0 fold equity here, there is no chance he folds and over pair, or any pair for that matter, I would even expect him to call with AK here possibly. The major concern in this hand is the EP guy. I am most concerned about his range of hands and the amount of fold equity I have against him.

[Eight_Tabler]

mkeller3086, on Thursday, March 8th, 2007, 8:59 AM, said:

I think with the small blind being loose we have close to 0 fold equity here, there is no chance he folds and over pair, or any pair for that matter, I would even expect him to call with AK here possibly. The major concern in this hand is the EP guy. I am most concerned about his range of hands and the amount of fold equity I have against him.

You don't think there is any chance he was betting the flop with air? You did describe him as very loose, so I think this is at least possible... You're right though; EP would be my biggest concern as well. In my mind there is a better chance he has something like A7s, 88, 99, FD than a set, since he "probably" would've raised with a set... I think we have a good amount of FE vs. most of his possible holdings.

[cubbybri]

I don't like the call PF myself. This is exactly the type of flop I am looking for if I were to play these cards so I think I play back at them, push. You saying villain loose, that mean loose aggro or loose passive. Will he make real loose calls. You may change mind if that is the case. Villain proably has something like A7 or an OP. IMO so you may be able to take villain off the hand and have out if villain or villains make the call. There is enough coin the pot now to make this worthwhile either for FE or with one or two in the pot. I think you are the favourite against the range of hands you are looking to see in this position, so make sure you see both cards here and push.Of course you may be up against a higher flush draw, that's why I wouldn't have played this hand at all but how can you just drop it if you were playing it PF. This is exactly the flop you are looking for with these cards. Unless you were hoping for 664 and a few other perfect flops which rarely come, you need to play out this hand IMO.These are the types of speculative hands that can get you in chip position in a big MTT.Again, I fold PF though then feeling very frisky.

[trystero]

mkeller3086, on Thursday, March 8th, 2007, 11:59 AM, said:

I think with the small blind being loose we have close to 0 fold equity here, there is no chance he folds and over pair, or any pair for that matter, I would even expect him to call with AK here possibly. The major concern in this hand is the EP guy. I am most concerned about his range of hands and the amount of fold equity I have against him.

I don't really care about FE here. Both players are probably calling, and IMO that is acceptable. I want to accumulate a lot of chips and I've got the hand to do so if it hits. Even if we whiff we're still alive in this thing.

[mkeller3086]

cubbybri, on Thursday, March 8th, 2007, 9:19 AM, said:

I don't like the call PF myself. This is exactly the type of flop I am looking for if I were to play these cards so I think I play back at them, push. You saying villain loose, that mean loose aggro or loose passive. Will he make real loose calls. You may change mind if that is the case. Villain proably has something like A7 or an OP. IMO so you may be able to take villain off the hand and have out if villain or villains make the call. There is enough coin the pot now to make this worthwhile either for FE or with one or two in the pot. I think you are the favourite against the range of hands you are looking to see in this position, so make sure you see both cards here and push.Of course you may be up against a higher flush draw, that's why I wouldn't have played this hand at all but how can you just drop it if you were playing it PF. This is exactly the flop you are looking for with these cards. Unless you were hoping for 664 and a few other perfect flops which rarely come, you need to play out this hand IMO.These are the types of speculative hands that can get you in chip position in a big MTT.Again, I fold PF though then feeling very frisky.

9-1 closing the action with position the whole hand with a hand that plays well multiway? I don't think so. I think even folding the first time around in late position after two limpers is a bad idea.

[ChrisRichey]

The pf call is fine, but you are not closing the action pf. As played, I probably fold. If this was a HU pot, I would be more inclined to push. Also, the gutshot give you three more outs.

[tskillz187]

mkeller3086, on Thursday, March 8th, 2007, 8:33 AM, said:

the gutshot does give me 4 more outs, not sure if you noticed that. That being said I beleive I am around 25% to hit on the turn.

Yeah I'm half studying. It gives you 3 more and it is around that %. I think it's marginally correct to play.

[mkeller3086]

ChrisRichey, on Thursday, March 8th, 2007, 9:34 AM, said:

The pf call is fine, but you are not closing the action pf. As played, I probably fold. If this was a HU pot, I would be more inclined to push. Also, the gutshot give you three more outs.

after small blind raises i'm closing the action because the button is not in the hand. could you give any more information on why you would fold? sorry about counting it as 4 outs for the gutshot, forgot it was accounted for in the flush outs.

[ChrisRichey]

mkeller3086, on Thursday, March 8th, 2007, 9:37 AM, said:

after small blind raises i'm closing the action because the button is not in the hand. could you give any more information on why you would fold? sorry about counting it as 4 outs for the gutshot, forgot it was accounted for in the flush outs.

The reason I am hesitant to play this hand is because of the presence of the EP villain. I don't see what he can just flat call with here. With no read on him, makes it even tougher to put him on a hand. The only thing I can think that he would play this way is a set or a higher flush draw. As far as the pf action, I assumed he was talking about the limp, not calling the raise. The limp is fine, and it's an easy call with those odds in pos after the SB raise.

[jmbreslin]

How often would players slowplay a set in EP's situation? Maybe he figures a raise makes it too obvious that he's hit his set so he's taking a chance that Hero will call and then he can get more aggressive on the turn if a non-diamond hits. How likely would this play be?

[cubbybri]

mkeller3086, on Thursday, March 8th, 2007, 10:27 PM, said:

9-1 closing the action with position the whole hand with a hand that plays well multiway? I don't think so. I think even folding the first time around in late position after two limpers is a bad idea.

After raise of course you don't fold, you made your first mistake, why make a bad fold now. The reason you fold the first time it comes to you is exactly what happened here, the SB raised, luckily for you it was a min and NOW you have good odds to call with a speculative hand.Are you playing right now to accumulate chips? I hope so since you are playing a suited one gap against a stack that is admittedly not going to fold to you.If that is the case, the best hand you had implied odds to hit was a flush draw. If you were looking to hit a made hand, the villains stacks do not warrant it at 40 and 20 BB unless you were hoping to hit any pair. I doubt that.This is your scenario for the cards you played. I think against both players range of hands you are ahead if both call (probably against OP and tp/tk IMO may have another flush draw to contend with as well). Loosey goosey will call from your read and EP should have a nice hand as he limp UTG and smooth called the raise.I may just be in a rotten mood but if you are arguing playing the 64s to begin with then you should already know you can't drop this hand on this flop to this action. Which goes back to what I originally said, for me this is a fold PF. 64s meant to be played against opponents when you all have big stacks IMO. This is not the case here.