14 replies to this topic

[jimhoff14]

Bodog .5/1 NLHE (6-handed)

CO ~ 160
Hero covers.

Hero is in bb with 4 4 . Hero and villian have been at table for a while now. Have not been playing with each other much knowing that both are solid players. I do remember raises him on the flop after his continuation bet once or twice, I think thats about it. I would say villian views me as LAG and he is more TAGish.

Pre-flop:
2 folds, CO raises to $3.5, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop ($7.50): 5 7 j (3 players)
Hero Checks, CO bets $7.5, Hero raises to $21, CO reraises to $55, Hero pushes?.

Thoughts on my play? Obviously trying to get him to lay down an overpair. I am certain he doesn't have a set, and I don't think he has AJ. He might also have air and just think that I am making a play after my first raise. I really feel like my play shows a set as that is what I'm trying to represent. I know most players are not capable at this level to lay down an overpair to all this action, but I feel like he has the ability to do so.

[rdtedm]

Bodog .5/1 NLHE (6-handed)

CO ~ 160
Hero covers.

Hero is in bb with 4 4 . Hero and villian have been at table for a while now. Have not been playing with each other much knowing that both are solid players. I do remember raises him on the flop after his continuation bet once or twice, I think thats about it. I would say villian views me as LAG and he is more TAGish.

Pre-flop:
2 folds, CO raises to $3.5, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop ($7.50): 5 7 j (3 players)
Hero Checks, CO bets $7.5, Hero raises to $21, CO reraises to $55, Hero pushes?.

Thoughts on my play? Obviously trying to get him to lay down an overpair. I am certain he doesn't have a set, and I don't think he has AJ. He might also have air and just think that I am making a play after my first raise. I really feel like my play shows a set as that is what I'm trying to represent. I know most players are not capable at this level to lay down an overpair to all this action, but I feel like he has the ability to do so.

Once he re-raises, you should get out. If his hand is good enough to dictate a bet and a re-raise, your push is going to give him about 2:1 to call the rest of his stack. You certainly are representing a set well, but are you really certain he doesn't have one? What is this read based on? This is a gamble in a marginal situation that I think should be avoided, but that's just me.

[throwemaway]

I would absolutely need to know that he will lay down an overpair in this situation..From your description, I don't think you have played with him long enough to know that he will be able to do that

[dms26]

Thoughts on my play? Obviously trying to get him to lay down an overpair. I am certain he doesn't have a set, and I don't think he has AJ. He might also have air and just think that I am making a play after my first raise. I really feel like my play shows a set as that is what I'm trying to represent. I know most players are not capable at this level to lay down an overpair to all this action, but I feel like he has the ability to do so.

I think the chances of him laying it down is slighty larger than the chance he accidentally clicks fold. I don't really see the point for this play, he already has 1/3 of his chips in the middle. Bluffing with complete air is overrated IMO.

If you think you will play against him a lot in the future it may set something up later, that's really the only useful thing I can think of for making this play.

[Acid_Knight]

Once he re-raises, you should get out. If his hand is good enough to dictate a bet and a re-raise, your push is going to give him about 2:1 to call the rest of his stack. You certainly are representing a set well, but are you really certain he doesn't have one? What is this read based on? This is a gamble in a marginal situation that I think should be avoided, but that's just me.

My exact question when reading this post was going to be "How are you "certain" that he doesn't have a set?"

First thought is that your play is destined to fail. The odds that he has air here are pretty slim. You check-raised him and he reraised you right back, but it wasn't a "get the hell outta my pot" sized raise. He has pretty well represented that he has an overpair here, although he could easily have a set. He has already put in 1/3 of his chips and you're going to risk your stack to try and move him off of an overpair here?

The desired result is that he has an overpair AND will lay it down to your all-in. If he has a set, he won't fold and you're drawing dead. If he has an overpair and doesn't want to fold, then you're drawing to 2 outs. This bluff has to succeed about 1/3 of the time to be profitable. I don't think that's going to be the case at all. I think that this is a losing play and that you should've folded after check-raising your opponent.

[jimhoff14]

My exact question when reading this post was going to be "How are you "certain" that he doesn't have a set?"

First thought is that your play is destined to fail. The odds that he has air here are pretty slim. You check-raised him and he reraised you right back, but it wasn't a "get the hell outta my pot" sized raise. He has pretty well represented that he has an overpair here, although he could easily have a set. He has already put in 1/3 of his chips and you're going to risk your stack to try and move him off of an overpair here?

The desired result is that he has an overpair AND will lay it down to your all-in. If he has a set, he won't fold and you're drawing dead. If he has an overpair and doesn't want to fold, then you're drawing to 2 outs. This bluff has to succeed about 1/3 of the time to be profitable. I don't think that's going to be the case at all. I think that this is a losing play and that you should've folded after check-raising your opponent.

Maybe your right, but the reason that I know for a fact that he doesn't have a set is because he has position on me and when I raise him I know he would just call my raise and let me bet off my chips on the turn. That was what I was afraid of, I knew if he called I was done, but if he reraised me I still believed that I could win the pot with an allin bet. The reason I knew this guy would lay down an overpair to my allin is because he views me as solid and would not make this play with anything less than 2 pair. Being that I'm playing LAG, I could definately have 57 in this hand. Also, considering we are both sorta deepstacked, I don't think he wants to lose his whole stack, so after I push, I know he doesn't think I am bluffing, and could easily think his overpair is beat. One more thing, I have definately taken his line with air before as well. When I think a player is making a play at me after I cb and get raised, occassionally I reraise the person and it works about 40-50 % of the time.

[rdtedm]

Maybe your right, but the reason that I know for a fact that he doesn't have a set is because he has position on me and when I raise him I know he would just call my raise and let me bet off my chips on the turn. That was what I was afraid of, I knew if he called I was done, but if he reraised me I still believed that I could win the pot with an allin bet. The reason I knew this guy would lay down an overpair to my allin is because he views me as solid and would not make this play with anything less than 2 pair. Being that I'm playing LAG, I could definately have 57 in this hand. Also, considering we are both sorta deepstacked, I don't think he wants to lose his whole stack, so after I push, I know he doesn't think I am bluffing, and could easily think his overpair is beat. One more thing, I have definately taken his line with air before as well. When I think a player is making a play at me after I cb and get raised, occassionally I reraise the person and it works about 40-50 % of the time.

If that re-raise works 40-50% of the time (especially such a small re-raise), you should tell me which game you're playing at. Also, if you're playing LAG he probably thinks you have a hand like TPTK, or TP good kicker. Most overpairs won't lay down a hand because they think someone hit two pair and bested them preflop. His re-raise is strength, and since you don't have any of that, you should lay this down.

[jimhoff14]

If that re-raise works 40-50% of the time (especially such a small re-raise), you should tell me which game you're playing at. Also, if you're playing LAG he probably thinks you have a hand like TPTK, or TP good kicker. Most overpairs won't lay down a hand because they think someone hit two pair and bested them preflop. His re-raise is strength, and since you don't have any of that, you should lay this down.

I don't know, maybe I reraise more than that, but anyway, there is no way I am pushing with aj or something like that, and he knows it. LAG doesn't mean stupid. Remember that, I am good enough to lay down top pair top kicker to his reraise, as in that case, the raise would be for info and his reraise would give me enough info to lay it down. I don't think your points are valid.

[rdtedm]

It seems to me that you're in the mindset that you HAVE to win this pot, just because you're in the position where making a risky play might pay off, and you don't want to miss the opportunity. If I were you in this position, I'd fold. You made a small re-raise to see where you were at, and you got your information when he re-raised you. How often do you see a raise PF, bet and re-raise at the flop, and then muck to the last bet? You have plenty of chips if you have CO covered to pick a better spot. Getting your money in with a pair lower than the board and villain representing strength just isn't a good idea if you're deepstacked.

The play makes sense if villain was making a move with air pre-flop, but it isn't likely.

[Acid_Knight]

I don't know, maybe I reraise more than that, but anyway, there is no way I am pushing with aj or something like that, and he knows it. LAG doesn't mean stupid. Remember that, I am good enough to lay down top pair top kicker to his reraise, as in that case, the raise would be for info and his reraise would give me enough info to lay it down. I don't think your points are valid.

I think that ALL of the points people have made are valid. You're assuming that he can't possibly have a set here becuase he chose to reraise you on the flop, but the fact is that he could play it differently. You're assuming that he puts you on a set here, when you could have QQ or KK, which would mean that his AA is still good. You're assuming that he will never think that you're bluffing here, or that you're making a move.

Most of the points that other people have made are trying to show you that if ONE of your many assumptions turns out to be false, the villain will likely call you and you'll lose the pot. Add that to the times that he will call anyway and you're quickly losing any possible edge that you might have had with the pot odds here in terms of a profitable bluff.

Come here to learn, don't come here to tell people that all of the valid points that they make about the hands are not valid becuase you say the villain will only play a certain way, when in fact you don't know that.

[jimhoff14]

I think that ALL of the points people have made are valid. You're assuming that he can't possibly have a set here becuase he chose to reraise you on the flop, but the fact is that he could play it differently. You're assuming that he puts you on a set here, when you could have QQ or KK, which would mean that his AA is still good. You're assuming that he will never think that you're bluffing here, or that you're making a move.

Most of the points that other people have made are trying to show you that if ONE of your many assumptions turns out to be false, the villain will likely call you and you'll lose the pot. Add that to the times that he will call anyway and you're quickly losing any possible edge that you might have had with the pot odds here in terms of a profitable bluff.

Come here to learn, don't come here to tell people that all of the valid points that they make about the hands are not valid becuase you say the villain will only play a certain way, when in fact you don't know that.

I wasn't saying everyones points aren't valid, i just though his points in that particular post were not valid. I understand what you are saying, I guess I wasn't positive he didn't have a set, but I had a good feeling he didn't. Are you ever certain on your reads, hardly ever. I am trying to learn, thats why i posted. I guess overall the play is not profitable. I was trying out a new thing, The Yeti theorem I read about in another forum, and felt like this was a good spot to try it out. It probably is only supposed to be used at higher stakes and higher levels of competition. I don't want to be results oriented either, but in this particular hand, the villian took forever when I pushed and finally folded. Other players at the table were talking about my hand and were saying i had 777 or 555, but one guy said he had a 7 so it was probably 555. The preflop raiser didn't tell me what he had when I asked so I am not sure wether it was an overpair or something like AJ or air. But either way it was one of the biggest bluffs I have done.

[Acid_Knight]

It's good that you're trying to learn and that you're becoming capable of making moves like this.

The thing is, when you bluff, take advantage of someone who you know has a WEAK hand. Your hand reading skill requires the same level of perception, but this way, when you make your move, you're not relying on them to make a big laydown, only a standard one.

That isn't to say that you can't pick on strong players with strong hands, just don't make a habit out of it becuase it will cost you money. Pick on strong players when you know they have weak hands.

[Naismith]

A lesson I've learned in the past and that was expensively reinforced to me last night...getting people to fold overpairs is a costly proposition. You have to be absolutely certain this guy is laying down AA here or else you're just spewing chips.

[jimhoff14]

A lesson I've learned in the past and that was expensively reinforced to me last night...getting people to fold overpairs is a costly proposition. You have to be absolutely certain this guy is laying down AA here or else you're just spewing chips.

Understandable. I know it is very hard to get players to lay down overpairs. I myself still have a lot of trouble. I don't think that play would work much and that is a big reason why it would only be a rare occasion to attempt it. I felt like the board was dry enough and we were deep enough that it looked like I had a real big hand.

[Lavitz]

I think you just happened to catch him reraising with air but most of the time I don't think he has enough in his stack to afford laying an overpair down as he already has a lot invested. I like raising his c-bet but not pushing over a TAG's further reraise here.