23 replies to this topic

[akishore]

the game is nine-handed $50NL (25c/50c blinds), but by now, there's easily over $1000 on the table. the average stack is probably $100 - $150. the table is very loose aggressive. queen-high can and will take down pots, and people will call heavy pre-flop raises with 6-2 suited, etc.UTG (very tight/passive) raises to $3 straight. UTG+1 (loose, tricky player) calls. MP1 folds. i call (MP2) with 10 9 . MP3 (loose, tricky player) calls. CO folds. button (another loose but tricky player) calls. SB (a very loose/aggressive and tricky player) calls. BB (also a loose/aggressive and tricky player) calls.we see the flop seven-handed (did i mention this table was loose?). the pot is currently $21.flop comes K 8 7 .SB checks. BB checks. UTG (tight/passive pre-flop raiser) bets $17. UTG+1 (loose, tricky player) calls. i (MP2) call. MP3 (loose, tricky player) stacks off for exactly $17 (he's all-in). button folds. SB folds. BB folds.we see the turn four-handed with one hand all-in. main pot is now $89. future betting is all in a side pot.turn comes 9 .UTG checks. UTG+1 bets $50. what do you do?(btw, you have a read on UTG that he will fold.)aseemedit: forgot stack sizes. UTG is irrelevant, i had a strong read that he would fold. UTG+1 has $43.50 or so left (less than his bet). i have around $160. MP3 is already all-in.

[allinbluff35]

you never said what the flop bet is, i'll continue reading

[akishore]

allinbluff35 said:

you never said what the flop bet is, i'll continue reading

sorry, edit. thanks. flop bet is $17 by UTG.aseem

[brando]

Don't have much time, but from what I read quickly, I think I'm folding. You described him as loose/tricky, which could obviously mean a range of hands. I'm thinking the most likely is 56s or 10Js (56 being "more" likely), just based on the fact he led on the turn and only called the flop. If that's the case you're drawing to a split if he has 10J. Is he "tricky" enough to just call the PF raise w/ Kings? Even then your way behind. I think the best play is to fold, but I've got class I'll look at the bets/pot odds later.

[Briguy]

Hmm...$50 into a $139 pot with 8 outs. 2.78:1 with 5:1 pot odds. Not a great place to call or go over the top, unless you put tricksty player (UTG+1) on an :spadesa: :spades8: (or another spades rag) and a pseudobluff. In that case, 2 of your 8 outs are no good, but he has to hit one of 12 outs to beat you...I say fold, unless you have a laser beam read on UTG+1 (i.e., if you've seen him bet half his stack on a pseudobluff under similar circumstances).

[StackOSociety]

Was this online or live action?

[looshle]

This is tough cause it all depends on what you think UTG+1 will do if you can hit one of your outs. I think if your straight or 2 pair hits, he bet it first to act. He might slow down if another 9 hits but i doubt it. I think all of your outs are clean, which makes it borderline, probably closer to the side of folding, but I would probably call.I read one of my friends poker books once, forgot the title or author, but he's getting advice from one of his poker buddies who says "If you're ever 50/50 on calling or folding, you should call. Why? Because it's more fun that way"

[Absolute]

akishore said:

the game is nine-handed $50NL (25c/50c blinds), but by now, there's easily over $1000 on the table. the average stack is probably $100 - $150. the table is very loose aggressive. queen-high can and will take down pots, and people will call heavy pre-flop raises with 6-2 suited, etc.UTG (very tight/passive) raises to $3 straight. UTG+1 (loose, tricky player) calls. MP1 folds. i call (MP2) with 10 9 . MP3 (loose, tricky player) calls. CO folds. button (another loose but tricky player) calls. SB (a very loose/aggressive and tricky player) calls. BB (also a loose/aggressive and tricky player) calls.we see the flop seven-handed (did i mention this table was loose?). the pot is currently $21.flop comes K 8 7 .SB checks. BB checks. UTG (tight/passive pre-flop raiser) bets $17. UTG+1 (loose, tricky player) calls. i (MP2) call. MP3 (loose, tricky player) stacks off for exactly $17 (he's all-in). button folds. SB folds. BB folds.we see the turn four-handed with one hand all-in. main pot is now $89. future betting is all in a side pot.turn comes 9 .UTG checks. UTG+1 bets $50. what do you do?(btw, you have a read on UTG that he will fold.)aseemedit: forgot stack sizes. UTG is irrelevant, i had a strong read that he would fold. UTG+1 has $43.50 or so left (less than his bet). i have around $160. MP3 is already all-in.

Fold.You are getting 2.78 to 1 if you call. Obviously he calls if you push, and you have to think you are behind here with a king on the board and seven players to the flop.Assuming a 6, 9, 10, or J will give you the best hand here, you are about 3.69 to 1 to hit your hand.Fold. Fold. Fold.

[Smasharoo]

i call (MP2) with 10 Suit: Club 9 Suit: Club Why?

[Vade]

Calling a 6BB raise with 9-10 clubs is...creative...at bestOn the turn, you have 2nd pair with a weak kicker and a potentially compromised draw if somehow a spade draw is out thereEl Foldo

[ChuckSty]

Vade said:

Calling a 6BB raise with 9-10 clubs is...creative...at bestOn the turn, you have 2nd pair with a weak kicker and a potentially compromised draw if somehow a spade draw is out thereEl Foldo

i see your point but in some live games where there are six people in every pot and there is no such thing as an unraised pot i think it's not a bad hand. I mean with that many people in i think the value of suited connectors goes way up and the value of pocket pairs gets reduced. I mean i do see your point but i also play in games where i feel like a hand like that has the potential to win monster pots against people who won't fold overpairs or even top pair. Regardless if i don't hit it hard on the flop i'm usually out. although i think in this situation you are probably drawing to the nuts, it's a pretty tough call. if you hit your going to win an additional 43.00 right so you have to factor that into your pot. becasue it doesn't look like bettor is gonna be folding. i'm not sure, i think the pot odds are a litte bit against you but if you factor in 10% bluff it might be about even.

[Absolute]

ChuckSty said:

Vade said:

Calling a 6BB raise with 9-10 clubs is...creative...at bestOn the turn, you have 2nd pair with a weak kicker and a potentially compromised draw if somehow a spade draw is out thereEl Foldo

i see your point but in some live games where there are six people in every pot and there is no such thing as an unraised pot i think it's not a bad hand. I mean with that many people in i think the value of suited connectors goes way up and the value of pocket pairs gets reduced. I mean i do see your point but i also play in games where i feel like a hand like that has the potential to win monster pots against people who won't fold overpairs or even top pair. Regardless if i don't hit it hard on the flop i'm usually out. although i think in this situation you are probably drawing to the nuts, it's a pretty tough call. if you hit your going to win an additional 43.00 right so you have to factor that into your pot. becasue it doesn't look like bettor is gonna be folding. i'm not sure, i think the pot odds are a litte bit against you but if you factor in 10% bluff it might be about even.

In games like this you should actually be thinking less about playing 109s.

[Petoria]

looshle said:

This is tough cause it all depends on what you think UTG+1 will do if you can hit one of your outs. I think if your straight or 2 pair hits, he bet it first to act. He might slow down if another 9 hits but i doubt it.  I think all of your outs are clean, which makes it borderline, probably closer to the side of folding, but I would probably call.I read one of my friends poker books once, forgot the title or author, but he's getting advice from one of his poker buddies who says "If you're ever 50/50 on calling or folding, you should call. Why? Because it's more fun that way"

I just read that in Sklansky's Hold 'em Poker for advanced players. A LIMIT Hold 'em book that doesn't necessarily apply to no limit situations. I just read that the other day and additionally, it only applies to loose games.I think this is an easy fold.

[akishore]

hold on a second.pre-flop, my call with 10-9 suited was absolutely correct, and i'll defend that to my death.this is deep-stack no-limit poker. implied odds are huge, and the deep stacks (the average stack is around 150 big blinds) allow a lot of creativity. the game is also very tricky and tough, and rock players stick out like sore thumbs in that game.suited connectors and low pocket pairs are big moneymakers in deep-stack, aggressive no-limit games. i thought we had gone over this in several threads.online, fine, stick to Axs and pocket pairs, but you can't do that here.i strongly, respectfully disagree to those who think the 10-9 suited call is bad. the flop is 7-handed... would you not play 10-9 suited in a limit game that saw 7 people to the flop? the raise means virtually nothing since the stacks are deep, except to tell me that the raiser (who is weak/tight) has a big pair or a big ace, and that gives my suited connector even more power.my big question is about the turn, not pre-flop...aseem

[Petoria]

so you paired up, but you can't be sure that either your 10 or 9 is any good. I don't like calling 1/3 of your stack with a 4 to 1 draw on less than a 3 to 1 shot. I don't like giving yourself 5 outs, bc I would try to bet out str8 draws with 2 pair. Gotta fold.

[ChuckSty]

akishore said:

hold on a second.pre-flop, my call with 10-9 suited was absolutely correct, and i'll defend that to my death.this is deep-stack no-limit poker. implied odds are huge, and the deep stacks (the average stack is around 150 big blinds) allow a lot of creativity. the game is also very tricky and tough, and rock players stick out like sore thumbs in that game.suited connectors and low pocket pairs are big moneymakers in deep-stack, aggressive no-limit games. i thought we had gone over this in several threads.online, fine, stick to Axs and pocket pairs, but you can't do that here.i strongly, respectfully disagree to those who think the 10-9 suited call is bad. the flop is 7-handed... would you not play 10-9 suited in a limit game that saw 7 people to the flop? the raise means virtually nothing since the stacks are deep, except to tell me that the raiser (who is weak/tight) has a big pair or a big ace, and that gives my suited connector even more power.my big question is about the turn, not pre-flop...i couldn't agree more.my opinion on the turn though isn't a very good one. i'm kind of wishy washy on what i'd do there. i think it would depend on how i was feeling; and the game in general. if i thought there was a possibiltiy of a bluff i'd go for it. and if i got a read that he was super strong and maybe had trips or two pair i'd lay it down. but i don't know. aseem

[ChuckSty]

yeah the more i think about it the more i think it's a fold after the flop

[gobears]

looshle said:

This is tough cause it all depends on what you think UTG+1 will do if you can hit one of your outs. I think if your straight or 2 pair hits, he bet it first to act. He might slow down if another 9 hits but i doubt it. I think all of your outs are clean, which makes it borderline, probably closer to the side of folding, but I would probably call.I read one of my friends poker books once, forgot the title or author, but he's getting advice from one of his poker buddies who says "If you're ever 50/50 on calling or folding, you should call. Why? Because it's more fun that way"

Andy Bellin was the author - Poker Nation. Excellent book.Unfortunately, I think that this hand is less than 50-50. I think that you have 10 outs (6's, J's, 9's), probably good but I would factor it down for the potential flush that is sitting out there. Also, there is the slight chance that someone already has the straight (you said that all the players are tricky, so I'm assuming that the all-in guy could already have his hand)So, I'd say overall maybe 1 in 5 if I'm being generous.You're getting 2.8 to 1 ($139 for $50) for the call.Fold.

[Vade]

akishore said:

hold on a second.pre-flop, my call with 10-9 suited was absolutely correct, and i'll defend that to my death.this is deep-stack no-limit poker. implied odds are huge, and the deep stacks (the average stack is around 150 big blinds) allow a lot of creativity. the game is also very tricky and tough, and rock players stick out like sore thumbs in that game.suited connectors and low pocket pairs are big moneymakers in deep-stack, aggressive no-limit games. i thought we had gone over this in several threads.online, fine, stick to Axs and pocket pairs, but you can't do that here.i strongly, respectfully disagree to those who think the 10-9 suited call is bad. the flop is 7-handed... would you not play 10-9 suited in a limit game that saw 7 people to the flop? the raise means virtually nothing since the stacks are deep, except to tell me that the raiser (who is weak/tight) has a big pair or a big ace, and that gives my suited connector even more power.my big question is about the turn, not pre-flop...aseem

OK then, fold the turn, that 9 can only hurt you I think3 possibilities:Nut flush draw with a pair (A-8 spades being the most likely)Made straight...if there's that many preflop, that's easily possible that you're dead to a J-10...course you were dead to that on the flop :-/Pair of KingsYou're ahead of 1, but still in serious trouble, and the A-8 probably has a better chance of improvingNumber two you're completely dead in the water, and no card can help youNumber 3, you have 8 outs to a straight (presuming number 1 isn't the all in hand-entirely possible) along with 2 9's which may make you the best hand, or be chasing to a straight, or 3 10s which could give you an inferior two pair3 handed...I just don't see how that 9 did anything but cripple your hand

[akishore]

alright, thanks for the advice. i should have folded.i took a long time to think, and i finally called. what it boiled down to me was that his call on the flop most likely meant A8/A7, and when no one raised on the flop and the bettor checked, he would think that either his 8's/7's are good or that he could push others off the hand. against A8/A7, my pair itself was good, and against a pair of kings (say KJ or some similar weak kicker scenario), i had a clean 13 outs to improve. since the pot (implied) odds were break-even in that case, i ended up calling because i felt there was a strong possibility i was up against A8/A7.i strongly doubted that he hit a gutshot. i know that he doesn't play gutshots without proper odds, and the pot-sized bet on the flop would make him fold JT or T6, so if the 9 made a straight for him, he had the low end with 65 (against which i had 7 outs to win or tie, so i still left myself outs if this was the case). it was also possible that he had a set (since he just called the flop bet), so my two pair and trip draws were no good, but again, i still left myself a clean 8 outs to improve.what swayed me mostly was that he just called the flop bet. i couldn't see him doing that with something other than a pair, a straight draw, or a set. against two of three possible pairs, i was ahead, and against one, i most likely had a clean 13 outs (KT or K9 would be the only bad cases). against a made straight on the turn or a set, i still left myself outs. what it boiled down to was that i put him on A8/A7 with a possible spade draw.i'm still on the fence about it, but i see that everyone is saying fold.regardless, i called, the river came a 3 of diamonds, my opponent rightly put me on a missed draw and immediately stacked off for $43.50, and since the pot was $239, i was getting nearly 5.5-to-1. i thought my odds were good enough to make a crying call, especially since he might have A8/A7 and was trying to simply push me out with my missed draw. unfortunately, he turned over AK, and won the hand (why he just called on the flop baffles me).aseem