And Who Said Internet Players Were Getting Better?

[Lavitz 0]

Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.50/$16 playersConverterStack sizes:Hero: $99.50UTG+1: $85.80CO: $96.70Button: $36.90SB: $99BB: $33.95Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with K A Hero raises to $3.5, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.Flop: K J 9 ($14.5, 4 players)BB checks, Hero bets $10, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, BB raises all-in $30.45, Hero folds...UTG+1 and CO are playing quite loose but they wouldnt just call with air obviously. BB has been tight but obviously shortstacked. I was worried about UTG+1 and CO so I just folded. could be drawing pretty much dead to a lot of hands and there's plenty of draws. Anyone play this different?

[David_Nicoson 1]

I'm probably biased by the action after you folded (which I think you should trim, by the way), but it looks like your opponents could be drawing a lot.

[Sefaje 0]

Not really, I think you're very rarely ahead of the BB. Your BEST case scenario is for your three opponents to have KQ, 65d, and JT really. And even then you're just 37%. Most hands that you're beating the UTG+1 and CO will fold unless it's KQ or ATd or something.The times you've got the best hand, it won't hold up enough to make up for the times you're drawing very very thin or dead. Although I'm guessing from the thread title BB showed A4d or J9, UTG+1 showed KQd, and CO showed 33.And you would've won the pot.

[Zach6668 513]

I'm probably biased by the action after you folded (which I think you should trim, by the way), but it looks like your opponents could be drawing a lot.

Good call.I hope people don't mind me editing their posts to remove this kind of stuff...

[Acid_Knight 2]

I'd lean towards calling this with the logic that the players behind you would've raised to protect a hand that beat yours and that the all-in raise isn't that big at all. You easily dump the hand if any of the draws are completed or if another broadway card falls, but for another $20, I'm gonna call the all-in raise because I don't think that either player that flat called your bet on the flop has you beaten.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Your BEST case scenario is for your three opponents to have KQ, 65d, and JT really. And even then you're just 37%.

Recognize that in a 4 way pot, he only needs to win 25% of the time to break even. Just 37% is a massive edge.

[Sefaje 0]

Recognize that in a 4 way pot, he only needs to win 25% of the time to break even. Just 37% is a massive edge.

I recognize this. 37% is pretty big here, but there are times where he is at or very close to 0%. Your BEST case scenario needs to be more than 37% to make up for how poorly you can be drawing sometimes.Also, how is he going to play this pot other than folding? A raise allows his opponents to play perfectly against him. A call pretty much does also, especially for the guy who closes the action. He's OOP on the turn --- and by then, his opponents will have odds to chase any draw. (That's assuming the turn isn't any diamond, Q, T, J, 9, 8 or even A) So unless he hits one of his few blanks, he can't bet. If he bets the turn, he's gonna be giving his money to better hands and building a pot on a draw heavy board with top pair. Eww.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I recognize this. 37% is pretty big here, but there are times where he is at or very close to 0%. Your BEST case scenario needs to be more than 37% to make up for how poorly you can be drawing sometimes.Also, how is he going to play this pot other than folding? A raise allows his opponents to play perfectly against him. A call pretty much does also, especially for the guy who closes the action. He's OOP on the turn --- and by then, his opponents will have odds to chase any draw. (That's assuming the turn isn't any diamond, Q, T, J, 9, 8 or even A) So unless he hits one of his few blanks, he can't bet. If he bets the turn, he's gonna be giving his money to better hands and building a pot on a draw heavy board with top pair. Eww.

His bet on the flop, followed by 2 callers very well defines their hands as ones which he is beating. If any player in the pot had outflopped him, they would have raised the flop to defend their hand against the multiple opponents that are in the pot.When the BB raises all in, we have an interesting situation. The hero has to call $20 into what is now a $54 pot. Let's assume that the BB is willing to push with a pair and a gutshot (JT, KQ, etc) as well as any draws and 2 pair or a set. Well, the hero isn't in horrible shape against that range. Yes, when he's behind he's drawing almost dead and when he's ahead, the villain is very live, but look at the pot odds of almost 3-1 that he is being offered. That almost definitely offsets the times that we are behind or get drawn out on.Since the other 2 villains in the pot flat called the bet on the flop, I am not going to give them credit for having me beaten here. I think this is a good situation to reraise all in and put pressure on your remaining opponents to fold. It's a gamble, but considering how the hand has played out, I don't think either of them has me beaten, and if I push here, they are not going to get good odds to draw to a hand that beats mine. If i get them to fold drawing hands that would have beaten me, I increase me equity in the pot. I'm willing to gamble that neither of them has a hand to stack off with, and I'll take my chances heads up with the villain in the BB when the pot is laying me 3-1.

[Lavitz 0]

Good call.I hope people don't mind me editing their posts to remove this kind of stuff...

Wow I hate you now for removing that. Nah, just kidding, I shoulda removed it. My bad.

[Sefaje 0]

His bet on the flop, followed by 2 callers very well defines their hands as ones which he is beating. If any player in the pot had outflopped him, they would have raised the flop to defend their hand against the multiple opponents that are in the pot.

I have to disagree with this. Assuming your opponents are savvy enough to automatically raise with anything that beats AK (which includes 8Td or KQd) and also assuming that we have >27% against the BB pusher and 2 callers behind is contradictory.

[David_Nicoson 1]

I have to disagree with this. Assuming your opponents are savvy enough to automatically raise with anything that beats AK (which includes 8Td or KQd) and also assuming that we have >27% against the BB pusher and 2 callers behind is contradictory.

I think we're discounting his holding a little bit because of the "**** it, I'm all in." factor.

[Sefaje 0]

I think we're discounting his holding a little bit because of the "**** it, I'm all in." factor.

He's shortstacked. Do you want him to minraise? His all in is just over 1/2pot.I'm hearing a bit of "if anyone had us beat, they'd have raised us. Yeah, we got raised, but we're not beat."

[David_Nicoson 1]

He's shortstacked. Do you want him to minraise? His all in is just over 1/2pot.

I'm saying the raise means less because he's risking less. I can see making that move with KQ. If he's going to call the turn it's better to take a stab at the pot anyway. Similarly, if he's on a draw he doesn't have to be concerned about reopening the betting.

I'm hearing a bit of "if anyone had us beat, they'd have raised us. Yeah, we got raised, but we're not beat."

Those aren't logically contradictory statements. E.g.,If it's a rectangle, it'd be a square. Yeah, it's a rectangle, but it's not a square.

[Acid_Knight 2]

He's shortstacked. Do you want him to minraise? His all in is just over 1/2pot.I'm hearing a bit of "if anyone had us beat, they'd have raised us. Yeah, we got raised, but we're not beat."

I don't criticize his going all in from the BB. I'm also not saying that we're beating that player. If you read my post, you'd see that we're getting almost 3-1 on our money if we can isolate that player. He's drawing or dominated enough to make pushing profitable if it isolates him. Based on the reaction of the other 2 players to this pot, I wouldn't assume that they want to invest their stack to see the turn here. If either one of the other 2 players had raised and been called or if they raised and the BB pushed, we'd have an easy fold. This is more complicated because the 2 players whose stacks we fear have already shown weakness.

[pokerguy33 0]

I didn't read the OP, but from the title, is sounds like your talking about internet players, and how bad they are. By reading the thread you posted about the 22 hand, I have to sit back,and say before judging others play, you should review yours first. That 22 hand you played was just horrible.

[Zach6668 513]

I didn't read the OP, but from the title, is sounds like your talking about internet players, and how bad they are. By reading the thread you posted about the 22 hand, I have to sit back,and say before judging others play, you should review yours first. That 22 hand you played was just horrible.

You should probably read the OP.

[Acid_Knight 2]

You should probably read the OP.

You should listen to the forum God.

[pokerguy33 0]

Just stating my opinion, not trying to start a conflict, just my opinion, its a forum.

[Zach6668 513]

Just stating my opinion, not trying to start a conflict, just my opinion, its a forum.

Don't judge a player by one hand when you are ignoring the dozens of other hands he's posted.

[pokerguy33 0]

Wasn't judging this player from one hand. I said he played the 22 hand horribly, and so did about 4 other people. And I didn't read the OP because I was just going on context clues from the title. But anyway......

[Zach6668 513]

lol Imconfusedaments.

[Naismith 0]

Wasn't judging this player from one hand. I said he played the 22 hand horribly, and so did about 4 other people. And I didn't read the OP because I was just going on context clues from the title. But anyway......

I might be mistaken as I usually am, but if you wanted to criticize the OP for a hand he posted about in a different thread, there's probably a different thread dedicated solely for the purpose of discussing that specific hand. I can find it for you, if you'd like. Otherwise, it might look to the casual viewer that you're just taking shots at someone.Moving on...I don't necessarily agree that the players behind us raise with hands that beat ours. Qd-Td, for instance. I would not be surprised to see one of the two cold-callers move some chips once we've folded.Heads up, obviously, we continue on with this hand. If he has us, he has us. In this position, I think you must fold.

[trystero 0]

Wasn't judging this player from one hand. I said he played the 22 hand horribly, and so did about 4 other people. And I didn't read the OP because I was just going on context clues from the title. But anyway......

LOLSo tell me why you didn't read the OP? How can this enable you to comment constructively on his hand? What prevented you from doing so and needing to rely on context clues? His post was plain as day for all to see.As for the hand, that's a lot of action to be facing with just top pair and players yet to act. Without any real reads I'm bouncing.

[trystero 0]

I don't necessarily agree that the players behind us raise with hands that beat ours. Qd-Td, for instance. I would not be surprised to see one of the two cold-callers move some chips once we've folded.

I don't either. Many players flop sets or straights and don't really worry about protecting their hands and punishing draws; to them, they have made a monster and they are programmed to slowplay monsters. With these players yet to act I am out of this hand. I'm actually thankful for them. If BB has KJ or QT their presence just saved me a lot of money.

[pokerguy33 0]

LOL