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#1 Skyblue

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 03:55 AM

Firstly I want to say well done to DN for discussing the global warming issue, people with influence should use it for good causes IMO. I've been trying my best to make people more aware of the problems the world faces but unfortunately I can't reach the amount of people guys like DN can. Secondly, before I give my opinion on this I want it made clear I'm certainly not anti-American and have many great friends there.Well I have been worried about the climate crisis for a while now and after reading the stuff here I'm now even more worried. It seems that many Americans are completely in denial. Maybe because they are the worst culprits I do not know. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we would all like to believe this whole thing isn't a big problem.Anyone in the US who doesn't think we are having very negative effects on the heat in the world today should maybe take a trip to somewhere like the middle of Africa where they are actually seeing the effects of global warming very clearly. The horrendous irony is that the people feeling the worst effects are the people who didn't cause the problem! Whereas in the US, Europe, etc we're getting milder winters - excellent eh? My final point on this is lets assume that the climate crisis PROBABLY won't come to anything then. However, this would mean that we're not sure. I mean, even if there's a 1% chance the world could see some kind of drastic change in the next 50 or 100 years shouldn't we take some action? To be in complete denial and think all these scientists are making it up is surely crazy. Plus, will it really put us out to make sure we recycle more, use less resources, etc, etc. I believe if societies across the world pull together to solve the climate crisis (whether it's true or not) then it will create a knock on effect to other areas. We need people to show a bit more responsibility and learn about working together for the common good. Too many people are out for themselves these days, I don't think many can deny that.

#2 Dark Gaia

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 06:55 AM

View PostSkyblue, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 3:55 AM, said:

My final point on this is lets assume that the climate crisis PROBABLY won't come to anything then. However, this would mean that we're not sure. I mean, even if there's a 1% chance the world could see some kind of drastic change in the next 50 or 100 years shouldn't we take some action? To be in complete denial and think all these scientists are making it up is surely crazy. Plus, will it really put us out to make sure we recycle more, use less resources, etc, etc. I believe if societies across the world pull together to solve the climate crisis (whether it's true or not) then it will create a knock on effect to other areas. We need people to show a bit more responsibility and learn about working together for the common good. Too many people are out for themselves these days, I don't think many can deny that.
Depends on which scientists you are referring. Some "fake" scientists --- with no affiliation to any high profile organization --- were bribed by the U.S. government to publish BS articles emphasizing that global warming is a myth and is a natural phenomenon (or something like that...which is bull). Bush is strongly denying the global warming phenomenon...likely because he's still trying to get the oil resources from Iraq for the sake of strengthening the US economy. Yeesh...I'm not quite sure if other countries are trying to pursue the oil as well...maybe someone can tell me. My primer minister (Canada) might be falling into the same trap...because he did scrap some environmental programs...particularly withdrawing from the Kyoto protocol. That led me to be highly suspicious of his/the Canadian government's agenda. Anyway, I digress.The real educated and qualified scientists are constantly being lashed by the U.S. government and the government will do anything to get them out of the way. I think this kind of thing happens everywhere, not just in the U.S.At least where I live, it's so good to breathe fresh air!
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#3 coesillian

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 12:24 PM

View PostSkyblue, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 6:55 AM, said:

Firstly I want to say well done to DN for discussing the global warming issue, people with influence should use it for good causes IMO. I've been trying my best to make people more aware of the problems the world faces but unfortunately I can't reach the amount of people guys like DN can. Secondly, before I give my opinion on this I want it made clear I'm certainly not anti-American and have many great friends there.Well I have been worried about the climate crisis for a while now and after reading the stuff here I'm now even more worried. It seems that many Americans are completely in denial. Maybe because they are the worst culprits I do not know. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we would all like to believe this whole thing isn't a big problem.Anyone in the US who doesn't think we are having very negative effects on the heat in the world today should maybe take a trip to somewhere like the middle of Africa where they are actually seeing the effects of global warming very clearly. The horrendous irony is that the people feeling the worst effects are the people who didn't cause the problem! Whereas in the US, Europe, etc we're getting milder winters - excellent eh? My final point on this is lets assume that the climate crisis PROBABLY won't come to anything then. However, this would mean that we're not sure. I mean, even if there's a 1% chance the world could see some kind of drastic change in the next 50 or 100 years shouldn't we take some action? To be in complete denial and think all these scientists are making it up is surely crazy. Plus, will it really put us out to make sure we recycle more, use less resources, etc, etc. I believe if societies across the world pull together to solve the climate crisis (whether it's true or not) then it will create a knock on effect to other areas. We need people to show a bit more responsibility and learn about working together for the common good. Too many people are out for themselves these days, I don't think many can deny that.
lol it's always been hot tin the middle of africa, that really isn't where global warming is going to have the biggest effect. Melting of the glaciers is going to cost a lot of people their fresh water. When the artic melts and the gulf stream changes Europe may freeze over. Many place in Europe would not be able to cope with the snow fall we get here in Montreal. If the countries at out lattitude had our seasons they would become grid locked. Ther repercussios will be global and North america will also feel them. Ecosystems and animal life will have a hell of time adapting to rapid climate changes. The biodiversity on this continent would definetly take a hit. These are the likely possible outcomes of global warming. IT is pointless to argue about why global warming is happening, we should be trying to live greener lifes anyways to reduce our effect on the world. But like you say, for some reason it's hard to get people ( many americans and some dumbasses on this forum) to realize the stakes at hand. They just dont care.
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#4 Skyblue

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 01:07 PM

View Postcoesillian, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 12:24 PM, said:

lol it's always been hot tin the middle of africa, that really isn't where global warming is going to have the biggest effect[/b]. Melting of the glaciers is going to cost a lot of people their fresh water. When the artic melts and the gulf stream changes Europe may freeze over. Many place in Europe would not be able to cope with the snow fall we get here in Montreal. If the countries at out lattitude had our seasons they would become grid locked. Ther repercussios will be global and North america will also feel them. Ecosystems and animal life will have a hell of time adapting to rapid climate changes. The biodiversity on this continent would definetly take a hit. These are the likely possible outcomes of global warming. IT is pointless to argue about why global warming is happening, we should be trying to live greener lifes anyways to reduce our effect on the world. But like you say, for some reason it's hard to get people ( many americans and some dumbasses on this forum) to realize the stakes at hand. They just dont care.
While I'm glad you're in agreement that this climate crisis is real the way you brush off Africa as basically unimportant is pretty bad. It is true that to an extent the world just doesn't care about that continent. I used the middle of Africa as an example because that is a place where people live, or try to, and are feeling the effects of climate change RIGHT NOW. Yes glacier melting would cause a bigger effect in terms of people in the long run and I really hope something is done about that but what about the people suffering now? Are they not important because I'm talking about Africa? Plus, as I said, these countries didn't cause the problem in the first place.Anyway, I didn't want to get in a debate with someone who actually believes in the global warming problems. I'm glad you're not in denial like a lot of people.

#5 nutzbuster

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 01:58 PM

View Postcoesillian, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 1:24 PM, said:

lol it's always been hot tin the middle of africa, that really isn't where global warming is going to have the biggest effect. Melting of the glaciers is going to cost a lot of people their fresh water. When the artic melts and the gulf stream changes Europe may freeze over. Many place in Europe would not be able to cope with the snow fall we get here in Montreal. If the countries at out lattitude had our seasons they would become grid locked. Ther repercussios will be global and North america will also feel them. Ecosystems and animal life will have a hell of time adapting to rapid climate changes. The biodiversity on this continent would definetly take a hit. These are the likely possible outcomes of global warming. IT is pointless to argue about why global warming is happening, we should be trying to live greener lifes anyways to reduce our effect on the world. But like you say, for some reason it's hard to get people ( many americans and some dumbasses on this forum) to realize the stakes at hand. They just dont care.
Neither of these are the reasons for Global warming. And most do care.The fact is, if you believe that global warming is all MAN caused, the USA is FAR down on the list of countries that pollute the most.Global warming is happening, no doubt, but the alarmists and hard core environmentalists are having their day in the Sun so to speak, and will push this idea as hard as they can because they want to live life a certain way. And I'm not saying that is all bad. I fully respect and appreciate that mindset. But to the degree that we are warming, what is actually causing it, and the degree of impact it will have is all hype an speculation at this point. No one really knows what any of this will mean in the long run. And I am not saying we should just sit on our hands and wait but instead advocate that we have time to seriously determine the root causes in an UN BIASED manner, and adjust the few that we can.But all of that hate and panic is not a good thing and it hurts any credible voices regarding this issue. The fact is Global Warming is a cyclical planetary phenomenon, it happens historically every 1500 years or so. The jury is still way out on whether or not it is all man caused. That has NOT been proven, it is merely an opinion at this point. More can be done and will be done. But even if all the cars were eliminated tomorrow, according to the so called experts, the planet would still continue to warm for the next 200 years. I guess I am just saying quit blaming the US for all of this, and/or that we don't care and are not doing anything. MANY are, and that is a good thing. But "living greener" is not going to happen over night. It just won't. Markets and economies (and Im talking around the world) are just are not set up for that yet. Everyone needs to relax until we can define the best PROVEN ways (if any) to counter act whats happening and then take action.peace out. :club:



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#6 11 to 1

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 02:00 PM

View PostSkyblue, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 6:55 AM, said:

Firstly I want to say well done to DN for discussing the global warming issue, people with influence should use it for good causes IMO. I've been trying my best to make people more aware of the problems the world faces but unfortunately I can't reach the amount of people guys like DN can. Secondly, before I give my opinion on this I want it made clear I'm certainly not anti-American and have many great friends there.Well I have been worried about the climate crisis for a while now and after reading the stuff here I'm now even more worried. It seems that many Americans are completely in denial. Maybe because they are the worst culprits I do not know. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we would all like to believe this whole thing isn't a big problem.Anyone in the US who doesn't think we are having very negative effects on the heat in the world today should maybe take a trip to somewhere like the middle of Africa...
As a great American movie once said "Never underestimate the power of denial." We don't have to go anywhere, we can just look at Louisiana. Or start counting the increase in devastating tornadoes. Or what we are paying for produce with as much crop failure as has hit us in the last few years. Or do anything at all to educate ourselves. But we won't. And it is, almost entirely, our fault. And we'll pay. The economic devastation of American culture as a result of climate change is inevitable and forthcoming within one or two decades. What goes around comes a round - Africa should get front row seats. On behalf of all Americans, especially those who feel insulted by this, let me apologize to the world for the suffering we have caused with our egregious waste of resources. I'm such a hypocrite, don't you think? I really believe every word I wrote, yet, I do not turn off this computer....
When truth is nothing but the truth, its unnatural, it's an abstraction that resembles nothing in the real world. - Aldous Huxley

#7 11 to 1

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 02:04 PM

View Postnutzbuster, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 4:58 PM, said:

The fact is Global Warming is a cyclical planetary phenomenon, it happens historically every 1500 years or so. The jury is still way out on whether or not it is all man caused. That has NOT been proven, it is merely an opinion at this point.
Like I said - we could educate ourselves, but we won't. This guy actually believes this - because he wants to and is just too damned lazy to find out he is spewing through his buttcheeks -
When truth is nothing but the truth, its unnatural, it's an abstraction that resembles nothing in the real world. - Aldous Huxley

#8 nutzbuster

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 02:21 PM

View Post11 to 1, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 3:04 PM, said:

Like I said - we could educate ourselves, but we won't. This guy actually believes this - because he wants to and is just too damned lazy to find out he is spewing through his buttcheeks -
:club: I give. I am as well read and reasonable a person as you'll ever meet and honestly trying to appreciate both sides. And my opinion is just as valid as your's at this point.But the fact is, engaging in a reasonable debate in this arena is futile... and overtly mean spirited.I'm done with this topic.



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#9 coesillian

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 02:38 PM

View Postnutzbuster, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 4:58 PM, said:

Neither of these are the reasons for Global warming. And most do care.The fact is, if you believe that global warming is all MAN caused, the USA is FAR down on the list of countries that pollute the most.Global warming is happening, no doubt, but the alarmists and hard core environmentalists are having their day in the Sun so to speak, and will push this idea as hard as they can because they want to live life a certain way. And I'm not saying that is all bad. I fully respect and appreciate that mindset. But to the degree that we are warming, what is actually causing it, and the degree of impact it will have is all hype an speculation at this point. No one really knows what any of this will mean in the long run. And I am not saying we should just sit on our hands and wait but instead advocate that we have time to seriously determine the root causes in an UN BIASED manner, and adjust the few that we can.But all of that hate and panic is not a good thing and it hurts any credible voices regarding this issue. The fact is Global Warming is a cyclical planetary phenomenon, it happens historically every 1500 years or so. The jury is still way out on whether or not it is all man caused. That has NOT been proven, it is merely an opinion at this point. More can be done and will be done. But even if all the cars were eliminated tomorrow, according to the so called experts, the planet would still continue to warm for the next 200 years. I guess I am just saying quit blaming the US for all of this, and/or that we don't care and are not doing anything. MANY are, and that is a good thing. But "living greener" is not going to happen over night. It just won't. Markets and economies (and Im talking around the world) are just are not set up for that yet. Everyone needs to relax until we can define the best PROVEN ways (if any) to counter act whats happening and then take action.peace out. :club:
very interesting post, you seem you know the subject but your mind seems full of american propaganda.WE have a huge effect on global warming and this is scientifically accepted and unbiased. If we stoped using cars altogether I think close to 50% of GHG would be eliminated in Canada, but I do realize this is unacheivable. The US is a huge polluter, the largest in the world, something like 25% of the worlds GHG.Yes the globe has cyclical changes of temperatures but we are having a bigger effect than the world has ever seen.Chek out these graphshttp://www.fullconta...u...t&p=1592168and this one is a close up and more detailed of our effects Posted Imagewe have acheive new levels of CO2 tha have never been seen berfore and we are the cause of this. Because of the this the temperature will spike and the outcome is uclear but won't be pretty.AS for Africa, I don't know what immediate effects they are feeling from global warming, and it's not that I don't care if they they are suffering because of it, but I think there are more pressing issues to deal with regarding Africa ie: war, starvation, aids etc.
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#10 Miguel McHarris

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 03:56 PM

I'm slighty more worried about having my head blown out of my *** on the E train by some "freedom fighter." I don't care about global warming. There are more important things for me to worry about.

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 10:55 PM

View Postnutzbuster, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 5:21 PM, said:

:club: I give. I am as well read and reasonable a person as you'll ever meet and honestly trying to appreciate both sides. And my opinion is just as valid as your's at this point.But the fact is, engaging in a reasonable debate in this arena is futile... and overtly mean spirited.I'm done with this topic.
No, you certainly are NOT one of the best-read persons I ever met - by a very long shot. No one needs your understanding for the luvva mike, what everyone needs is your ACTION. No, your opinion isn't "valid" because it is not a matter of opinion - which you'd know if you were, indeed, well-read. The time for debate was past about ninety klicks back - people like myself have been telling everyone this for......ready?.....DECADES. Did anyone listen? NO! They just said it was all a matter of interpretation. Am I mean-spirited? Are you insane - people are dying in the millions right now - and have been for quite a while due to global warming, you moron.Gee, I wonder why anyone would get a little testy listening to lazy-a** jerk-offs like you being reasonable while the freakin' Antarctic ice shelf is charting the shortest course to Honolulu? I don't give a tinker's dam in hell what you personally believe or if you think you are qualified to have an opinion, which you are obviously not. Go turn off a few lights, go replace a few lightbulbs with flourescents, turn down your heat and buy a car that doesn't eat gas and learn how to ride the bus. You can tell everyone on it how very wise and wonderful you are and what a jackass I am. I'll even do testimonials as to your unparallelled erudition.This isn't about who is right, this is like arguing about whether cigarettes cause lung cancer while everyone lies dying in the oncology ward.
When truth is nothing but the truth, its unnatural, it's an abstraction that resembles nothing in the real world. - Aldous Huxley

#12 11 to 1

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 11:03 PM

View Postcoesillian, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 5:38 PM, said:

we have acheive new levels of CO2 tha have never been seen berfore and we are the cause of this. Because of the this the temperature will spike and the outcome is uclear but won't be pretty.AS for Africa, I don't know what immediate effects they are feeling from global warming, and it's not that I don't care if they they are suffering because of it, but I think there are more pressing issues to deal with regarding Africa ie: war, starvation, aids etc.
Good job with the graphs but American children haven't beeen required to learn anything in school for longer than most of these guys have been alive and they certainly won't read a graph. If you ever finds anyone who will listen, you might include the information that today, atmospheric CO2 alone is 30% higher than it has been at any time in the last 750,000 years.
When truth is nothing but the truth, its unnatural, it's an abstraction that resembles nothing in the real world. - Aldous Huxley

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 11:12 PM

View PostMiguel McHarris, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 6:56 PM, said:

I'm slighty more worried about having my head blown out of my *** on the E train by some "freedom fighter." I don't care about global warming. There are more important things for me to worry about.
I am going to answer this and get out of this thread, it just gives me high blood pressure. However--no, Miguel, you don't have anything more important to worry about. I will tell you why. Because unlike the slow ocean rise we have been seeing over the past few decades that cause serious but not life-threatening problems in a place like Venice or along shorelines where the coasts are being eroded away - when that ice sheet tumbles, it will happen all at once in the most likely scenario. Manhatten island will disappear about three hours later. All those disaster movies will become reality shows and Katrina will look like a fist fight at a street fair. What is not true is that it is hopeless. It is only likely to be hopeless because people like you think there is something more important to be worried about. Because Nutzbuster or whoever thinks it's a matter of debate. But, as I have been saying for many years, global warming is a self-correcting problem. The planet will just reduce the polluting virus - it's already started.
When truth is nothing but the truth, its unnatural, it's an abstraction that resembles nothing in the real world. - Aldous Huxley

#14 flyingdonkey

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 11:12 PM

WWRVD?What Would Robert Varkonyi Do?

#15 Balloon guy

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 11:20 PM

View Post11 to 1, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 10:55 PM, said:

No, you certainly are NOT one of the best-read persons I ever met - by a very long shot. No one needs your understanding for the luvva mike, what everyone needs is your ACTION. No, your opinion isn't "valid" because it is not a matter of opinion - which you'd know if you were, indeed, well-read.
What nutz was saying was he is the nice guy who will listen to your point of view and try to find middle ground, you want to argue with people like me: Rich arrogent American who thinks that global warming is a scam to take away private property rights. You totally missed by attacking nutz. He's too nice a guy to tell you why you are a loser.Now let's talk about what you said:

Quote

The time for debate was past about ninety klicks back - people like myself have been telling everyone this for......ready?.....DECADES. Did anyone listen? NO! They just said it was all a matter of interpretation.
Wrongo skippy. Decades ago the scare was global cooling. Then after that it was global pollution killing our oceans, now its global warming. This is just the new fad for the chicken little crowd.

Quote

Am I mean-spirited? Are you insane - people are dying in the millions right now - and have been for quite a while due to global warming, you moron.
I will bet you $1,000,000 that more people are dying directly from results of the enviromentalist getting DDT banned then from global warming in the last 10 years.

Quote

Gee, I wonder why anyone would get a little testy listening to lazy-a** jerk-offs like you being reasonable while the freakin' Antarctic ice shelf is charting the shortest course to Honolulu?
So what, who are you to say Hawaii doesn't need the ice?????? It's getting hotter there too right?

Quote

I don't give a tinker's dam in hell what you personally believe or if you think you are qualified to have an opinion, which you are obviously not. Go turn off a few lights, go replace a few lightbulbs with flourescents, turn down your heat and buy a car that doesn't eat gas and learn how to ride the bus. You can tell everyone on it how very wise and wonderful you are and what a jackass I am. I'll even do testimonials as to your unparallelled erudition.
I drive an SUV and am going to leave the lights on in my house an extra hour just because you are so mean spirited. Didn't your mother teach you that you'll gather more flies with honey than with vingear?This isn't about who is right, this is like arguing about whether cigarettes cause lung cancer while everyone lies dying in the oncology ward.Uhhh this is exactly about who is right. If you are right and the world is going to be destroyed, than we should get to raise the limit on deer this season! And screw that endangered species act, I'm shooting me some spotted owls.And there is no real proof that cigarettes cause lung cancer. It could be the sulfer in matches you know.
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#16 Balloon guy

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 11:22 PM

View Postflyingdonkey, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 11:12 PM, said:

WWRVD?What Would Robert Varkonyi Do?
The real question right there.Thanks for bringing it back to center FD
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#17 Balloon guy

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 11:32 PM

Quote

The 1991 eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines was one of thelargest in the past 100 years. The injection into the stratosphere of 14-26million tonnes of sulfur dioxide led to a global surface cooling of 0.5°C ayear after the eruption. The climatic impact of the Pinatubo aerosol wasstronger than the warming effects of either El Niņo or human-inducedgreenhouse gas changes during 1991-93
So what we really need is more volcanos to cool off the planet.
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#18 akoff

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 03:40 AM

In 50 years when I collect my 1 million from DN on the bet from the last post on global warming, I will buy the drinks....while sitting outside in in the new tropics of southeastern Pennslyvania of course. Maybe the Borgata will have an outdoor poker room by then...that would be NICEI guess I am bad guy that my truck has been in the parking lot running for the last hour while i am in the office. I am sorry but i hate getting in a cold truck to drive to a meeting.
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#19 Zeatrix

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 04:59 AM

View PostMiguel McHarris, on Thursday, March 1st, 2007, 12:56 AM, said:

I'm slighty more worried about having my head blown out of my *** on the E train by some "freedom fighter." I don't care about global warming. There are more important things for me to worry about.
Yeah there's been a lot of terrorist attacks on US soil. Oh wait a minute, just one in the last decade! Global warming is going to affect you, terrorism only affects your governments budget.
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"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." - Albert Einstein
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Lucius Annaeus Seneca
"If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the
evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something
which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest
evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.
" - Bertrand Russell

#20 Pot Odds RAC

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 12:24 PM

View PostSkyblue, on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 3:55 AM, said:

My final point on this is lets assume that the climate crisis PROBABLY won't come to anything then. However, this would mean that we're not sure. I mean, even if there's a 1% chance the world could see some kind of drastic change in the next 50 or 100 years shouldn't we take some action? To be in complete denial and think all these scientists are making it up is surely crazy. Plus, will it really put us out to make sure we recycle more, use less resources, etc, etc. I believe if societies across the world pull together to solve the climate crisis (whether it's true or not) then it will create a knock on effect to other areas. We need people to show a bit more responsibility and learn about working together for the common good. Too many people are out for themselves these days, I don't think many can deny that.
Might as well believe in a Benevolent Christian God - what's the harm? I mean, to think that millions of people believe in something that is made up is surely crazy. Oh wait, there are millions of Buddhists with conflicting beliefs. Whoops, Muslims too. Even Druids. And Atheists."...I believe if societies across the world pull together to solve the climate crisis (whether it's true or not)..."I just don't even know where to start with that.




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